CLASSIFICATION
Swallow ID:
5372
Partner Institution:
Simon Fraser University
Source Collection Label:
Reading in BC Collection
Sub Series:
Reading in BC Collection
ITEM DESCRIPTION
Title:
Jack Spicer discussion conclusion on serial poems in Vancouver on June 15, 1965 part 2 of 2 #752
Title Source:
cassette and j-card
Language:
English
Production Context:
Documentary recording
Genre:
Speeches: Question-and-answer period
Identifiers:
[]
Rights
Rights:
Copyright Not Evaluated (CNE)
CREATORS
Name:
Spicer, Jack
Dates:
1925-1965
Role:
"Speaker"
CONTRIBUTORS
MATERIAL DESCRIPTION
Image:
Recording Type:
Analogue
AV Type:
Audio
Material Designation:
Cassette
Physical Composition:
Magnetic Tape
Storage Capacity:
T01:38:00
Extent:
1/8 inch
Track Configuration:
2 track
Playback Mode:
Stereo
Sound Quality:
Good
Physical Condition:
Good
Other Physical Description:
Black and white clear jewel case with J-card
DIGITAL FILE DESCRIPTION
Channel Field:
Stereo
Sample Rate:
44.1 kHz
Duration:
T00:46:45
Size:
44.5 MB
Bitrate:
32 bit
Encoding:
WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files
Channel Field:
Stereo
Sample Rate:
44.1 kHz
Duration:
T00:46:47
Size:
44.6 MB
Bitrate:
32 bit
Encoding:
WAV for master files and .MP3 for online files
Dates
Date:
1965-06-15
Type:
Performance Date
Source:
J-card
LOCATION
Address:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Latitude:
49.2528
Longitude:
-123.1145
CONTENT
Contents:
Side Track No. Comments
One 011 Question regarding the distinctions in Sir Galahad between foolish and fool-ish
012 Spicer explains the fool as a kind of a holy thing as well as something that is just stupid
048 Q: What role do the recurring themes play in your own thought as you go along, like the forest, the boat, the Grail and the fool?
030 Spicer says he tries not to think about them as they recur. He elaborates on the ocean and the non-ocean
080 Questioner says he is interested in a particular mental action that keeps Spicer ignorant of what is in his mind
087 Spicer says you learn how not to trust yourself so much your mind becomes blank on it. Discussion ensues on this line of question regarding mental processes leading to Spicer’s ideas on the character of Merlin
159 Q: How are purity and Long Island Sound equated?
160 Spicer says that to identify yourself with the landscape is as stupid as identifying the Grail with purity – lengthy discussion of this idea
209 Q: What’s the difference between the grail in your serial poem and the moth in Robin’s serial poem?
215 Spicer replies that if the question had been put in threes, the grail, the moth, and the hunting of the snark, and the difference between them, then they are all collective things to be searched for. Robin’s was immediate appearance, Spicer’s was, through poetics, Gawain’s idea of the empty cup, the full cup. For Lewis Carroll, the snark is something that turns into a “boojum”
243 Question about Edwin Muir’s poems being similar to Jack Spicer’s (from Dorothy Livesay)
266 Q: How did the Australians get into the poem?
270 Spicer gives anecdote of Australian soldiers given defense of Greece by the British who moved out during the invasion by the Germans. Ninety percent were killed while the British sustained few casualties
299 Q: Since that vessel the Grail is elusive and a mystery, is there a process on your part of what you were doing, with what the serial poem is not? Is there a “not” process that works, a not naming it?
307 Spicer says that when he knew it was a grail poem, he didn’t make any effort to find it because he knew he wouldn’t find it himself. He elaborates on this process
327 Comment by audience member that he had thought of the poem as a poetics poem
328 Spicer thinks the poem goes into more of the human condition in relation to the divine taking the human. Spicer digresses into an anecdote about Glastonbury, south of Chester (where Arthur is supposed to be buried) and an 18th century machine that could write poetry
360 A question about whether the forest Spicer tries to get through in his writing is the same forest that Robin Blaser talks about… the holy forest
363 Spicer says Blaser’s holy forest is a different forest from the grail forest, Spicer’s forest being closer to Dante’s, the human condition
378 Q: Doesn’t Blaser talk about getting lost in the Forest?
380 Spicer responds that the Forest need not be a Jungian symbol. Further questions and answers regarding trees versus forest symbolism
434 A question about Spicer’s connection to Gatsby’s Long Island
436 Spicer says Gatsby’s Long Island is his; Gatsby’s forest is the forest of ashes
452 Spicer asks if the idea of the serial poem makes any sense to people
453 A question about the fixed order of each segment and whether Spicer changes it
456 Spicer says changes means the poet will be taken along his own path. His dissatisfaction with “The book of Lancelot” lies in the fact that he is speaking through the poem
480 Questioner comments that Stevens’ writings about his poetry are similar to Spicer’s; does that make him a serial; poet?
482 Spicer says Stevens had a map for his poetry
503 Spicer has become more distrustful of Stevens as people who dislike poetry become more enamored with Steven’s poetry
514 Spicer explains the meaning of the title “serial”; that you go from one point to another to another not really knowing where you are
516 General discussion ensues around the choice of the word “serial”
521 Spicer says The Pickwick Papers in the novel term, is the only place where Dickens is completely free of a destination
528 Spicer on Mr. Jingle and stream of consciousness writing
533 Q: Does Naked Lunch relate to serial poetry?
535 Spicer says he doesn’t like Naked Lunch so he doesn’t think it is serial
546 Question about the flow of Spicer’s writing over nine months
554 Spicer discusses the writing process and answers questions on the issue of cutting, editing etc.
570 Spicer advises new writers to take chances and not revise; to go straight into the serial poem process
575 Spicer on baseball metaphor. Spicer says he wasted much of his time on writing perfect little poems, resents this wasted time, and advises new poets to try the most complicated things and fall flat on your ass doing it
589 The emphasis on craft in universities is a bunch of hogshit according to Spicer
600 Spicer on his nine-month writing process. When a line comes up that is perfect, that is exactly what he wants, he stops for several hours and waits and waits
638 Questioner suggests that the poem can be just a matter of chance. Does Spicer re-read his poems? Does he review them and then continue writing? Isn’t a later reading of ideas from the poem just a chance association?
653 The message may not be important, but you must read it again and again to find that out
659 Spicer says that if you’re good enough, you can act like a radio tube or a transmitter to get stuff from yourself
665 Question about Spicer’s first serial poems, The Elegies*
669 Spicer describes his first serial poems written over a number of years. Discussion emerges around challenging the concept of the serial poem process, and one questioner in particular suggests that revision and input would create a more complete poem
743 Questioner suggests Spicer equates passivity with unconscious skill, and uses music as an example of where a mastered skill can allow composers to create with the aid of years of practice
762 Spicer seems to be cut off and tape resumes at a later spot in the discussion during which Spicer counsels against revision
787 Questioner asks if Spicer’s preparation is perhaps not more conscious than Spicer wants it to be, due to years of mastering the technique of poetry
797 Spicer says this is a conditioned idea, as in painting, that an artist has to be trained in representation before painting an abstract work
816 Same questioner pursues this issue with an analogy to jazz
859 Spicer counters argument on form by advising students to fill their minds with reading and ideas, rather than studying form
864 Spicer refers to San Francisco poet, Jim Alexander (“The Jack Rabbit Poem” published in J). Alexander uses a technique of breaking words, but because he can’t spell, it is difficult to know when certain misspellings are intentional or not. Yet mastering the language and mastering difficult poetic forms are two different things
907 Audience member mentions Crane’s Voyages Two, and suggests that Crane could not have written the blank verse without the openness Spicer talks about
934 Same questioner asks if the enjoyment of poetry isn’t in seeing someone who understands language do what he wants with it and control it because he’s practised?
943 Spicer argues that poetry should not be meant as a pleasure for the audience, pleasures are incidental and unrelated to the poem
959 Dispute is settled by Spicer suggesting the disagreement lies in what a young poet should focus on
970 Spicer says the young poet should focus on keeping his personality out of the poem and letting something else come in
999 Poetry is not for pleasure. Spicer is not sure what poetry is for, but he is trying to pass on messages through his poems. A long debate follows among audience and Spicer on the question of pleasure in art and baseball
Two Begins: question of pleasure in art and baseball
047 A question begins on the poems that Spicer throws away, that are conscious poems
059 Spicer responds to a question about serial poetry pre-20th century
065 In ruling yourself out, does this have anything to do with Eliot’s idea of impersonality and getting rid of personality?
066 Spicer refers to Dante and Horace as the first to know this idea, it was not a “discovery” of Eliot’s
071 Questioners ask about the issue of craft and Spicer’s apparent antipathy to the idea
073 Spicer expounds on craft and the artist
088 A tussle in the audience over one questioner imposing his categories on Jack’s poem, especially the term meditative. Another audience member says this a way of talking about them so that he doesn’t see what they are
093 Spicer interrupts to talk about the use of “meditative”
107 Questioner believes Spicer is more interested in meditation than poetry, in the Ignatian sense
109 Spicer agrees – says that’s the first thing for the poet, especially for the beginning poet
118 Spicer says it’s a question of what is the first thing to reach, you do the simplest thing first – empty yourself out
146 End of tape, Side two
Notes:
SFU BC Readings formatting
NOTES
Type:
General
Note:
Jack Spicer: serial poems, The Holy Grail Vancouver BC, June 15, 1965
part II
side 1: 45:00
side 2: 43:10
#752
Note:
the length of the digital file's side 1 is T00:46:45 and side 2 is T00:42:47, but the performance only takes 45 minute on side 1 and 43:10 on side 2 and the rest of audio is empt
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