CLASSIFICATION
Swallow ID:
6886
Partner Institution:
Concordia University
Source Collection Label:
Lee Gotham collection
Series:
Lee Gotham collection
Sub Series:
Lee Gotham collection
ITEM DESCRIPTION
Title:
Enough Said 2022-09-23, Oral History with Gotham
Title Source:
Asset
Language:
English
Production Context:
Internet recording
Genre:
Performance: Sound Poetry, Music
Identifiers:
[]
Rights
Rights:
Creative Commons Attribution, ShareAlike (BY-SA)
License:
Creative Commons Attribution, ShareAlike (BY-SA)
CREATORS
Name:
Gotham, Lee
Dates:
1962-
Role:
"Series organizer",
"Producer",
"Performer"
CONTRIBUTORS
Name:
Camlot, Jason
Dates:
1967-
Role:
"Interviewer"
Name:
Paré, Faith
Role:
"Interviewer"
Name:
Pittella, Carlos A.
Dates:
1983-
Role:
"Interviewer"
MATERIAL DESCRIPTION
Image:
Recording Type:
Digital
AV Type:
Video
Sound Quality:
Excellent
Other:
Zoom recording.
DIGITAL FILE DESCRIPTION
Duration:
02:15:03
Size:
2.17 GB on disk
Bitrate:
2304Kbps (original); 256Kbps (master)
Encoding:
MPEG-4 movie
Content:
This is file 1 of 1 containing an oral history Zoom interview with Lee Gotham, the organizer of the Enough Said series.
Notes:
Zoom interview.
Content Type:
Video Recording
Dates
Date:
2022-09-23
Type:
Production Date
Source:
Asset
LOCATION
Address:
1455 Boul. de Maisonneuve O., Montréal, QC, H3G 1M8, Canada
Venue:
Concordia University's AMPLab at the Webster Library
Latitude:
45.4968158
Longitude:
-73.5779337
Notes:
Multiple locations, over Zoom. While Lee Gotham was at his home in Ontario, the interviewers were at Concordia University's AMPLab at the Webster Library, where the interview was recorded.
CONTENT
Contents:
[Zoom automated caption]
15:05:02 a decent transcript afterwards, which is useful for you know, getting a transcript for the oral history interview.
15:05:10 When we're done it will screw up my accent for sure the transfer So the worry about it for sure. but it's. but it's helpful later.
15:05:16 Yeah. So at this point I want to I just want. to invite Carlos and Faith to introduce themselves to you because they've been really digging into the enough said, videos, And And they're the ones who are working on this
15:05:29 project. So Carlos, do you want to go first, and then sure, Why not so,
15:05:34 Well, I have a very long name. I I feel like one of the protocols is stating your full name.
15:05:38 I go by Carlos A. Pittella my full name is one of those curses from Brazilian barrens Carlos Antonio Pittella de Souza Leite that doesn't fit any form I i'm actually
15:05:50 I'm zooming in from our amplab favors by there, too.
15:05:55 So you can see this is the Amplab Concordia the Jason setup is one of the founders of spoken web is.
15:06:03 We have a lot of new equipment here happening so It's a very cool space, and I i'm from Brazil originally. but my family's from all over the place, and ended up in Montreal with in the
15:06:14 creative writing program about border crossing poets and board and crossing poetry.
15:06:25 That is interesting in borders between languages and coaches, but especially people caught in between those borders. Yeah.
15:06:32 And indefinitely. I talk about bureaucracy.
15:06:34 I feel like all my boys are about bureaucracy one way or another.
15:06:37 Yeah, i'm very excited to be here and i'm involved in a lot of different projects has spoken at spoken web.
15:06:42 One of them was the ultimatum archive, the punk fast with that predates and offset it from one by one decade.
15:06:52 The Allen Lord Phones, and and we have an interesting collection of documents in in audio recordings from the automated archive. and then, after working on that for a little bit, Faith, and I started working on the enough sad a a seeing
15:07:03 it it's actually the first audio video archive that it that spoken web and access to so very cool.
15:07:12 And but yeah, I mean that's that's me I have a a a daughter, and that is, has many languages and passports and a partner that that is ecological education. So i'm interested in college. as well, But that's
15:07:24 that's basically me do super for her as well very good thanks and faith, Hi!
15:07:30 It's So it's so eerie seeing you Lee and I guess another video form.
15:07:36 But actually seen me. Yeah, yeah, it really is amazing to be able to chat with you, though I think Carlos and I feel like we've gone to know you in some sort of senses or a pastly so It will be really
15:07:50 interesting to see the evolution. but my name is Faith I'm also an Ra.
15:07:55 For spoken web i'm i'm finishing up my my last semester of undergrad, and I was doing English and creative writing.
15:08:02 Here also in the amp lab Here is an angle of some of the vinyl that we have, and hopefully, at some point you'll be able to combine Montreal and be able to spin some stuff that we've been
15:08:13 collecting here. yeah yeah some of the sound Technicians were doing tests of the work that they've been doing on like a the real real machines.
15:08:25 And the lathe cutters and it's it's out of my purview of what I do.
15:08:29 But it's very cool to me and I I i'm also a writer.
15:08:34 I come mostly out of the Toronto spoken word scene. and I landed here in Montreal and became really really interested in kind of histories of English language, writing and spoken word.
15:08:51 And and Montreal. And how basically those scenes overlap and filter out through Canada and elsewhere.
15:08:57 So the series has been a real real treat to see so many familiar faces, and also of people who are completely new to me, and also seeing the origins of many, many performers as well, who I, who I really admire and grown to
15:09:13 admire. So yeah, I feel very grateful to to your series as well.
15:09:18 I think it's a real predecessor for a lot of cool stuff that was to come in montreal. So i'm i'm really really thrilled to be able to talk with you today.
15:09:26 Yeah, likewise likewise yeah, it's it's certainly seems like something of a time tunnel for me back to you know, for where you are, and and the and the same sort of interests that was So thickly involved
15:09:40 with the myself at the time. so absolutely yeah no I I think this is gonna be a really cool like it's.
15:09:49 It's gonna be really cool to kind of like think back to the kinds of investments and tribulations and relationships that you had at that time, and obviously how much different that might be, or similar that might be to now So I think
15:10:03 that's always cool to the the past is so much closer than we think.
15:10:08 So. yes, but safe to say more different than than similar probably that's always good evolution.
15:10:18 I have a I am halfway through my sixtieth or my sixth decade on this planet.
15:10:22 So my recollection of the halcyon days of enough set will be patchy, perhaps.
15:10:31 But let's let's do our best no like we have to use each other.
15:10:43 Yeah, i'm so sorry we'll we'll probably be doing a little bit of that, and if necessary I can move that one to another room.
15:10:47 So let last us know if there's any issue with you know, surround sound, I guess, through the interview.
15:10:55 But I guess one thing that also i'll let Jason explain some of the per v 2 of the series. If he hasn't already.
15:11:05 I was inhaling a snack just so for this but one thing I think that's important to say off the top about doing oral history.
15:11:10 I'm not sure. What you're experiences with doing interview like this before, but it's a little different from Oh, go ahead.
15:11:22 Sorry, limited limited. Okay, good I think it's important to say that it's different from like you know doing a magazine interview or something of the like in that.
15:11:31 You really can kind of wander through memories as you like, and feel comfortable.
15:11:37 So if if things aren't really coming to you today, that's okay, or if you feel like you know, a real urge to go down a particular tangent like that's that's the kind of thing we look for and we really like
15:11:50 about doing oral history it's we're not coming here to kind of dig out very specific information rather than wanting to get a sense of what the time was like, and what the scene was like for you and asking some guiding questions
15:12:06 to be able to make some of those memories for you a bit clearer, or get out some of the things that you want to talk about.
15:12:12 So we have guiding questions today, but there that's what really what they are just a guide, and we can move through when we come up with questions as as we go.
15:12:25 I would add just 2 little things that allow some very interesting.
15:12:27 The providence of the collection. How did even get to us?
15:12:31 So there was. We have a lot of questions that would like to ask you regarding that as well.
15:12:35 I like, How did you? and ended up, evolved, or starting the series?
15:12:40 And how did the collection get to us so we'll go there?
15:12:43 But perhaps before we even get to that, Faith maybe I I don't know how much of the we didn't have a chance to discuss the the permission.
15:12:51 So maybe like just even a word about the consent. and then that is the the 4 for values about the Order History project.
15:12:57 Yeah, I don't know if you if you or Jason would like to help with that.
15:13:02 But basically, basically, nothing you say will be used against you unless you want to.
15:13:07 Basically that's the summary of it and you can revoke this permission anytime.
15:13:12 And and and is, if I know it, of recording is. and of course this is the idea that this interview becomes part of the collection as well.
15:13:19 But you can change that anytime, and if things and if things seem like they are moving to a different platform, or becoming more specific. and you always recalibrate any of that provision as well.
15:13:29 I mean i'm summarizing in my own words, but we have fancy a words about the constant as well I understand perfectly.
15:13:36 I did attempt to to create a documentary film once upon a time, and we had to go through all the same precautions that you're describing.
15:13:44 So it's all good for me? Great Well, Maybe We should get started.
15:13:49 Face. Did you wanna launch launch into the guiding questions start yeah that'd be great?
15:13:54 So I guess to to get started we were interested and you know starting off with what some of the world historians, and still the web called a life story framework for interview.
15:14:09 But it's it doesn't have to be so intimidating, I guess, as you know, biography or something.
15:14:16 But just the question about like, where is home to you where'd you grow up.
15:14:20 If that answer is different from home and what were some key elements of your childhood, your family, your friends defining moments in growing up. Okay?
15:14:32 Yeah, let me start by they the the before any more pile up, because i'll only remember 2 or 3 of those points that you just outlined.
15:14:43 But essentially I was born in in the Uk.
15:14:47 And in the middle of this south coast of England, and all my family still lived there, my immediate family, the only ones that ever left.
15:14:53 So I grew up, though from age 2 here in Canada, in Ontario, not in Montreal.
15:15:03 But I probably identify and still do almost as a dual citizen.
15:15:12 Culturally speaking, a 50 over 50 Canadian English sort of background.
15:15:16 If you will, although all of my blood and family and the way in which I was raised in the home and whatnot were British and my very working class English parents, you know, manage convey all the normal associated traits
15:15:36 and and values. I did grow up in Canada, so I did have all my schooling and social life outside of the home.
15:15:45 Just as a normal Canadian kid would, so that That was my early, you know.
15:15:54 Sort of Providence, if you will. I suppose I I first identified my interest in literature.
15:16:05 During my teens. I was not a precocious early life, reader.
15:16:11 I did, have, I thought, and probably to to some degree, realistically had a slightly good vocabulary.
15:16:25 Compared with a lot of my classmates in early years, just because of the the the operating in a British home, you know the language was almost incessantly whatever beaten into me if you will so in any case I
15:16:41 didn't read cautiously, but when I did start I started very enthusiastically, reading mostly philosophy and and and spiritually oriented texts, most of which were fiction and biographies some of
15:16:58 which were were more traditional philosophical texts, so that that sort of led to my interest in all things creative.
15:17:10 And I had an older brother who knew from day one he wanted to be a musician, and asked for a guitar at age 7 received it, and never looked back, and was, in fact, a lifelong musician composer until unfortunately.
15:17:25 passing way fairly early at the height of his creative powers, regardless.
15:17:32 I probably felt the same inclination musically, and I did.
15:17:35 In fact, get myself on stage in front of various audiences all through South Central Ontario during my teens.
15:17:44 But I I gave up after having lost 3 or 4 base players, and I began to feel as though maybe the the rock and roll path was going to be something of the self-indulgence.
15:17:59 So I turned to writing as My only vocal coach did suggest that Wow!
15:18:08 These these songs you're coming up with are really great, Maybe that should be your focus.
15:18:13 The the songwriting versus the vocalizations.
15:18:18 So I realized at that point that hey? i'm free to I had a troubled secondary education and was at my sort of seventeenth year free to to move on in any direction.
15:18:34 I wanted to so I chose to start writing and take take it on the road.
15:18:40 So for about 10 years I was more often outside of the country than here in Canada, and got my real education.
15:18:48 What I still feel is some something of a formal education.
15:18:52 Traveling Central America, North Africa, parts of the Middle East Europe, East and West ending up in in the Indian subcontinent that was like the zenith of my my 10 years of travel
15:19:06 abroad. In any case, I brought all that to Concordia in 1989 started
15:19:14 I wanted to to join the program. the writing program, that is, but arriving as a mature student 27 years of age was suggested that I I could probably benefit by a bit of English literature training training at the same time So I
15:19:31 started a Ba. in English. it was, you know, a augmented program.
15:19:37 I guess I had to. Oh, I can't remember 18 additional credits to accomplish something like that a half a year's work. yeah.
15:19:44 So regardless I I didn't I didn't you know remarkably well, considering I hadn't prepared myself much.
15:19:51 And yeah, at the end of it I had a Honors B. A.
15:19:54 In English and and went back to my old traveling wave.
15:20:00 And after another 2 years had been encouraged to try out the the graduate writing program, and it was accepting it to the masters. and did that as well.
15:20:10 So that was all. Just in the lead up and around the same time, as enough said, if, and leave. thank you for that.
15:20:19 That answer that really covers a large stand. I feel like just like to get on the record a few things.
15:20:23 Of course we know you as Lee got and I wonder if you want to state your full name, or that's the name.
15:20:29 You wanted to be register with interview, just like, Yeah, very important question. simple.
15:20:32 One Lee John the awesome actually pronounce Goetham. If you go back okay. nobody pronounce it got go from here. But that's that's good good to ask i'm glad I
15:20:45 asked them, even i've capitulated many years ago Oh, believe me, my name has many pronouns at this point, so I sympathize a A.
15:20:55 And but you mentioned also the the south coast of Uk.
15:20:56 Do you want to state a city in which you were born?
15:20:58 Maybe just a in. chambers for which is just outside of Southampton. I do not think the transcript is going to get that right, so I don't know if you wanna let me say it again.
15:21:06 Chandler's ford the chandler Guy, who makes sales for both right that's great.
15:21:12 That's great thank you for for that and and now, that you mentioned You're you're traveling that explains your collection of hats.
15:21:18 I feel like every enough set do you have a different kind of Ad. and I and I've been describing the video of it so like I really had to do a lot of research to try to get your your head collection.
15:21:30 But but we'll get there and but it's. just want to ask one another question about what you said like any specific text or books that that you remember from the time that really marked you that as you mentioned some spiritual
15:21:42 Herman has is coming to my mind for some reason I wonder if that's I read step in Wolf.
15:21:49 It was certainly typical of my teen reading.
15:21:54 Okay, I I mean there's so many of course, but I would say all this Huxley's novels.
15:22:04 Certainly there was a Richard Farina novel Been down so long.
15:22:06 It looks like up to me. the electric Kool-aid acid test.
15:22:12 Thomas Wolsea famous sixties take lots of yoga and and and I mean I read the autobiographic.
15:22:27 But but you'll give it I I looked at various
15:22:32 What would you call them? just how 2 books, I suppose, on meditation and That interest certainly developed alongside all of my creative interests.
15:22:44 Yeah, no, but I'm a hunter you're getting on this book is such a classic, I mean, and all the all the end.
15:22:49 The people around like the Roma krishna or Vivacanand.
15:22:52 I'm sure you got into i'm assuming you got into some of those as well in in the way to India right, of course, and the Tibetan book of the dead you know the the book of living and dying I the
15:23:04 You know the actual connections from my perspective. the connections in any honest North American of my generation.
15:23:17 Between spiritual pursuit and Well, let's let's call it a psychedelic interests.
15:23:26 We're we're many and and Manifold and the I guess this interpretation of the Tibetan book, the dead that was written by Leary Timothy Leary with his
15:23:45 cohort with his his colleagues.
15:23:46 Rather Ralph Metsner, and and the third that the ram dos.
15:23:52 I forgotten his his English name in any case.
15:23:55 That book interpreted a really, you know quite arcane text in a manner that made it so accessible, so so.
15:24:05 Compelling that i convinced myself I I think as a result of reading and rereading that text in various places and times that I wasn't a fact on a on a spiritual path of my own, and it
15:24:23 differed from some of the typically long disciplined and arduous paths described in in the Yoga text that I was so smitten with
15:24:36 It differed in in its in its immediacy, I suppose.
15:24:41 Yeah, in other words, this like a dog bath was something of a drop yourself in and start swimming quickly, because the tides will swirl about you, and maybe overwhelming.
15:24:52 If you don't just suck it up as it were so yeah, I I you know i'm an old hippie.
15:24:57 I I i've never made any i've never made any bones about it.
15:25:01 I really, you know, when people go all the guys not too much acid, not referring to myself.
15:25:06 But when I hear that type of take on the sixties or you know you think of Elvis costello's, you know, with peace, love, and understanding, you know what's so funny about It's not funny, you know this is this is you
15:25:18 know, really at the at the basis of our of our needs as a human race.
15:25:25 And and Yeah, it irks me no end, you know.
15:25:28 When the people that on one hand we're we're really to talk about the subject, but unwilling to accept of the fact that North America in the twentieth and 20 first century were you know a a different launching
15:25:43 ground. if you will for for people's spiritual lives absolutely I mean like
15:25:53 One thing that i'm curious about I know you mentioned your your brother in passing and also it's just like growing up as like a team.
15:26:02 I'm presuming in about the seventies or So this is like this is the kind of like yeah the fertile ground, essentially, and the kind of like searching for meaning and understanding that you're coming up in and like, do you do
15:26:17 you remember, like, necessarily, how you start to encounter some of these texts, or like cultivate your own interest in reading.
15:26:25 Was it like you know, someone like your older brother or like friends in your life who were like you got to check this out. Yeah, So let's put a little more emphasis on my older brother, because although he's passed he was a
15:26:36 huge influence in absentia. He was a a a bit of a not a savant, but the the genius, you know, like he.
15:26:47 He was pushed ahead in in the school system 2 years.
15:26:50 So he was out of high school, although he was only 2 and a half years older than myself.
15:26:54 He was out of high school before I got into it. He he graduated and and went on to
15:26:59 His first year. he did Western university but he went in at the moment that i'm sorry i'm just receiving a message off screen here.
15:27:11 Share your book all came out. Okay, i'll share about the books my wife is a real promoter.
15:27:17 She's my best reader, and and a and a and a stalwart.
15:27:21 In any case, my brother Nick Gotham was a, you know, highly accomplished musician. I, you know.
15:27:27 I could say he was probably, you know, among the greatest modern.
15:27:32 Jazz improviser instrumentalist of his day here in Canada.
15:27:41 The The The fellow that actually documented all of the enough said series for me.
15:27:48 Drew Duncan, he actually knew my brother by reputation quite well before we met, and as a result he had he.
15:28:00 He was a he's a real jazz and fistianado.
15:28:02 My brother was both a jazz composer and a musician as well as a a great
15:28:08 He searched throughout all world traditions for all of influences.
15:28:13 He could come up with, and he had, you know, a substantial classical music background as well.
15:28:20 So in any case, although he had gone out of the hometown, never to return.
15:28:27 In in his own words. you know, by the time I was like 16 years old.
15:28:34 His example. you know his rigor and his discipline, and his his rapid, you know, ascension through, you know, technical abilities and and and musical knowledge and and wisdom in general it is set a pretty high bar for
15:28:52 my myself, although I was the rocket roll. Guy, you know my the extent of my musical career was fronting rock bands, you know.
15:29:02 I I did take that that you know that thread of creative continuity between us.
15:29:08 Quite, quite to heart as so forgotten the leading question.
15:29:14 If you could remind me I think you've been answering it, I would agree, too, and I but i'm curious when you say fronting the band were you a vocalist and get our player
15:29:24 that's what i'm saying singer you're your your classic rock and roll front guy and the day.
15:29:33 It was still quite common to have people that didn't actually feel like they needed to get a guitar in front of them.
15:29:39 Yeah, no, that was. It was definitely the most invigorating thing I managed to, you know, before addulthood.
15:29:49 You know, early on I wanted to be a pro hockey player and then a rock star.
15:29:54 And after that I got realistic and, well, semi-realistic, started traveling as a as a vocation, I guess, for a good decade before I get to
15:30:04 To university. Did Did you play an instrument as well?
15:30:07 I mean did you learn from your brother how to play I thought I taught myself to play the flute, so I have asked this one, and and in fact purchased my my brother's old flute, as a as a first
15:30:20 instrument, but I did not take it to, you know, to the degree of seriousness which I would have seen me, you know, taking lessons, for example.
15:30:28 But I I I think I I I establish an excellent umbrella.
15:30:35 What what you require by way of you know your your physical relationship to the instrument, and
15:30:41 Breathing was never trouble, and I did have instruction in in breathing, both from my my own yogic practice.
15:30:50 Also I had a an excellent vocal coach, who was a diva Hungarian in her you know it's late seventies. to think when I started she taught me a lot about the the diaphragm
15:31:01 very various other spots along the the room The vocals are going to take.
15:31:11 So. Yeah, not not that we're going to be able to transcribe and Garen last name.
15:31:13 But I wonder if you only just if You remember the Coaches maybe it's an easy one.
15:31:17 Her name was Lydia Zengo. Okay, that was that was unusual for Hungarians.
15:31:23 If this is I love, I love to ask that question.
15:31:25 Fake and I Love, I love the answer i'm i'm thinking so many possible connections first like we we are familiar with your style of Mc and I'm.
15:31:33 Sure I might be getting ahead of ourselves here, but it it.
15:31:38 It means a lot to us to hear the front rock pence because you're so comfortable in seeing the series of enough, said, But i'm we're gonna get back to that i'm sure.
15:31:45 But also just in a state that I feel like fascinating, that the readings that you mentioned simple for example Yoga, none that i'm still thinking about was always dedicated to to create community in this case between East
15:31:55 and West, or some of the references you mentioned and and and and you mentioned also your brother with the world traditions, trying to to to, to to jazz between traditions as well.
15:32:06 And I feel like I see that in the way you created the series again getting ahead of ourselves.
15:32:12 But I don't want to also put boards in your mouth. But I like a feeling this is a feeling that that to me is very clear. and and I feel like you're giving them back history to something that already felt watching some of those
15:32:24 videos. I just wanted to make that commentary that's not really a question I think it's fairly accurate, though I definitely always felt that east of West fusion was really one of the most important things that either side
15:32:39 of that hemispherical divide could involve themselves with.
15:32:46 Oh, absolutely I I and I think like one thing to that stick sticking out to me, and I could feel some of the aspects that, like mean Carlos, have like talked about starting to cohere.
15:33:00 Listening to you is like, you know, not only your comfort on stage, but and, you know, introducing folks getting to know folks intervening on things that are going on the space that aren't necessarily what was planned.
15:33:12 But also, like, you know, this kind of comfort and self assurance with like what a scene is essentially, and I know i'm speaking incredibly, vaguely, but also like just the the concept of being in an artistic community, you seem extremely comfortable with
15:33:28 and curating in these videos and i'm wondering you know about. If you want to talk a little bit about you know, playing in your first bands touring a little bit like you've mentioned and starting to get to know what artistic
15:33:43 community is like. Do you remember some? he influences or figures or friends people that you met along the way that even before your career made you feel like, Yeah, I'm part of an artistic community?
15:33:54 Yeah, certainly. The band I only had one, and touring is, you know, perhaps a a stretch.
15:34:04 But we we we did play, you know, fairly frequently, locally, for a shortish period.
15:34:13 About 18 months, maybe, was that was the was the amount of it.
15:34:18 In any case. Yeah, I don't know how in formative that certainly would have given me.
15:34:28 I would I would have, you know already. experienced the you know the butterflies and and the all of the nerves, and all the the misgivings about getting on stage in front of people in that in that
15:34:42 process. but I wasn't I think I think i'm the something of an innate scenester, you know, like I.
15:34:51 I almost. you know I I hear the term hipster and and and scenes and things like, and I and I almost kind of go.
15:34:59 Yeah, you know, if you were one you wouldn't have that label you know, because I really feel it's it's just It's a natural thing. it's just something you're either really into people and expressing yourself and hearing the
15:35:14 feedback, and you know, delving into other people's creative input or you're not.
15:35:24 And if you're not you know I think it it it shows when you get up on stage, you know so so I think that's probably most of what informed my comfort I mean the other big element I think I can't
15:35:39 overstate is the pleasure I I derive, you know, being in front of a camera or on a stage.
15:35:47 Having people's attention you know I was always a huge attention, slot, you know, even as a little kid, you know, I could not go out of the house dressed the same way 2 days running.
15:35:59 It was just anathema to me. I had to, you know, have a really cool look going before I was going out that door.
15:36:07 Just just one of those things that you know defined my and still, that's probably too much to extend.
15:36:14 But hence the head collection Yeah, i'm still rocking the hats. I've got so much less I don't have as much choice about it.
15:36:26 But oh, it's always fun to describe the outfit soft enough, said Serious.
15:36:29 I mean fifth, and I have been fun with it and i'm just out of curiosity.
15:36:32 What was the I don't think we caught the band band's name? Oh, i'm sorry casualties, and it was a play on play on word, you know we spelt it.
15:36:42 I think kaya casual t e z or something like that. Okay. And and and do you remember any venues in particular benefit where you guys play that i'm just curious to or like the band formation.
15:36:54 Yeah, it was a typical rock band from the era.
15:36:58 I had both the lead and rhythm guitarists bass and drums behind me and
15:37:04 We were all but one. From my hometown we we imported base players, 3 or 4.
15:37:12 Now all from the city. and yeah, it was it was my good friend from school days.
15:37:19 Marty Mcdermott, who who was our lead guitars, who encouraged me.
15:37:26 To move in with them and and start a band, and we I think the easiest thing for me to do is is just Describe the maybe 3 or 4 seminal performances.
15:37:44 That I could still recollect, because yeah, there were divey bars, you know.
15:37:52 The golden garter of this, you know, is is probably chief among my my venue recollections.
15:37:57 It was a It was a, you know, pretty pretty down at heel sort of drink drinking establishment in the center, in the downtown districts on Hamilton Ontario which is the City, nearest
15:38:09 Andcaster Ontario, which is the small town in which I grew up.
15:38:14 Yeah, we We played a gig there, you know, for a a a pretty modest crowd.
15:38:20 I can remember how, having my first experience of people's willingness and my resulting capacity and my resulting, you know, just jumping at the opportunity to provide something like a shamanic conduit, you know between audience, and
15:38:42 and performance. I I really felt like I had tapped into something that I could share, and I could share it through.
15:38:50 Not just the you know the songs we'd rehearse, but my replic with the audience that that actual, instantaneous inspired moment that can last for an evening, or you know a matter of seconds, But is really you
15:39:06 know at the heart of of what I consider a, you know great performance.
15:39:13 So yeah, the Golden Garter was was A was a stalwart place.
15:39:19 It was right around the corner from our house. for one thing we didn't even have to hire a truck to get our equipment there.
15:39:24 That's great. We played bush bashes you know that was that was the the you know the another staple of people who grew up with, and when I did I always felt I had been very well served by I
15:39:42 didn't. Oh, our light just sorry we when you said bush Bash, as the lights went down, and I was afraid of asking a follow up that I one of us has to stand up.
15:39:50 So the light comes back in. Okay, but bush bash is Now i'll forever remember the pushbashes of course, in involves anything from 50 60 to you know 3 or 400 people out in the woods big bond
15:40:08 fire whatever you can manage to construct by way of a stage, you know, usually with the generator, for you know, sound so that you can have an electric rock and roll sort of experience in a very runner remote environment where and
15:40:24 where you can really get loose, and and not to not sweat the
15:40:29 The establishment. In any case. we played several of those we play barns, you know, on people's farms.
15:40:37 We played a lot of freaks bash, as we call these.
15:40:45 There was a There was a great and long standing, and remarkably still going.
15:40:51 Genuine subculture here in South Central Ontario, called the Freak Olympics.
15:40:58 It's it. It sounds rather risque and back in the day.
15:41:02 Yeah, I guess it kind of was. but basically it involved getting 20 teams of 20 plus individuals all out to an undisclosed destination.
15:41:14 Disclose on the on the day of you know just to the team captains and all manner of hygiene's, you know.
15:41:22 Basically an Olympics style event which involved, instead of rigorous athletic discipline.
15:41:29 Just a lot of of hilarity and and and well intended partying, basically.
15:41:39 And those were events that musicians fought for because they were such great crowds to play for.
15:41:47 And you were in such beautiful room locations that you couldn't play over a not a note wrong it seemed at at least.
15:41:57 And yeah, generally everyone was so high on the occasion that, you know you, you would get a a pretty good feedback from an hour on any given occasion.
15:42:09 So we played lots of freaksashes as well I'm. i'm. curious.
15:42:14 If the spirituality was already part of this events as well.
15:42:17 When you mentioned was already that seen with the influence of Ramdas and and and because when I think it was funny what what resonated with me, the first thing they came to mind was a in the in the pal, the the street where all
15:42:29 the the pilgrims when they were advocate mother leave it's called the Freak Street so it's funny like it's free. it's called the free street for the same reason but I don't
15:42:39 personally associate the 2 that closely, I I think. and I often, you know, prided myself on my ability to extricate myself from that scene, and not spend my entire life freaking, as it were.
15:42:56 Yeah, I I You know I had a lot more interest in in meditation.
15:43:00 Okay, I was probably the most important thing you know, psycho, not.
15:43:07 You can imagine. but I you know I had the the correlating
15:43:14 Part of my life which I spent in meditation and reading and studying cultures abroad. and Faith, I know that we can ask about this forever.
15:43:24 But I I just want to get in one more question about the the music scene, and I wonder if, like any specific song from your band, you still remember you have the mellowed in your head out of out of the blue.
15:43:35 Of course they were trying to make you sink you can or cannot but but i'm just very also very curious.
15:43:42 If any of the songs to resonate, and you still carry around some of those melodies or lyrics that you would like to share with us.
15:43:48 Oh, yeah, I don't know about sharing them impromptu at the moment.
15:43:54 But yeah, that not so much from the band. We, you know we played a lot of covers, but just reinvented them.
15:44:02 We did have a couple 3, you know, reggae influenced the sorts of original songs.
15:44:10 They're not the ones that have stuck with me I I wrote a bunch of stuff that just didn't suit the band, but was much more.
15:44:18 Me. And yeah, I just the other day, you know, I something to up.
15:44:25 And I was immediately singing from start to finish without a note out of place, you know, of 3 or 4 verse, you know, song with choruses that i'd written while traveling in in on a train actually in
15:44:39 Germany that he is in the Apache which makes no sense.
15:44:43 If you try to train it, because I didn't know German from my my left foot.
15:44:49 But the Oh, God! I wrote a another on on, on the on the above the the snow line, on on a mountain in the Dalai Gary range in the in the north of India.
15:45:08 You know these things. They stuck in my mind. I can.
15:45:10 I can sing snatches, but i'm not sure what purpose it could possibly serve, you know, for you guys.
15:45:17 But we can register for the universe that'll be like okay, let me try and register something for the universe.
15:45:25 I stepped up on the arm coats, green slopes to take me abreast of them all.
15:45:33 If I stepped up on darn costs green slopes to take me a stride of the morn.
15:45:40 Yeah, you know it's not i'm not feeling that one let's go.
15:45:44 That was, you know, something that I wrote with a Belgian.
15:45:47 I had the, you know, a little tin whistle, not a flute flute, but a little tin whistle he had he had a you know.
15:45:55 His his lap that that he would tap quite well. Co.
15:45:59 Quite well. He was a rhythmic, a counterpart that was good.
15:46:02 In any case. darn coats green Slopes darn called this little tiny Indian village halfway between the the the valley floor, where actually above the valley floor, you have a macload gang, and and that's just
15:46:18 above Dom Solid. it's where his holiness the Dalai Lama lives in his with his Tibetan community in in exile.
15:46:25 In any case, I had rented a little tiny what they called the weavers cottage, up on a on a hilltop, a mountain top.
15:46:35 Just on the snow line, and yes, this is where I would meditate for unruly amounts of time.
15:46:43 I was there about 6 weeks on my own, so I I spent a a genuine you know, spiritual little seance there.
15:46:50 But I did go down to town once a week to provision myself, and on one of those trips I met Mr.
15:46:55 Ruth. I've forgotten his first name Peter Peter Russo from Belgium.
15:47:00 In any case, what was the one on on the train?
15:47:07 Yeah. yeah. What a shame to travel such a long, long way through a land whose beauty, by the light of day is lost to me now.
15:47:26 Just a rushing void beside the window I said annoyed a meaningless life splash by in the night, a 1,000 wheels rolling as a start to right the hours away, reheed out of right through the miles this
15:47:51 trains given me out of my range I I think we better call that I've taken that and thank you thank you so much for for embrace in the universe. and no there was spent that But
15:48:09 i'm we really painted the scene and we can thank you for sharing, and the in the circumstances as well, and i'm imagining those mountains like in a queue out of curiosity when you when you're doing
15:48:19 meditation or you're doing buddhist meditation or like doing Korea Yoga from the Parama Hansa school, like, if you don't have to share with just of course i'm Curious I prior to
15:48:27 that phase of my trip. It was India and and Nepal.
15:48:36 All of these portion of India from Kenya Kamari all the way up to the delegary range, which is almost Ledac, and lay, if you know the the terrain. So the Malius proper in any case.
15:48:49 a, and then back down through Delhi. I went back up to Nepal, and tracked all the way up to one mountains base from Nepal, from Tibet.
15:48:59 Rather up the top of the longtime valley i've I've I've been to the long term before before.
15:49:07 The earthquake is like beautiful just before the earthquake, 2,005.
15:49:10 But yeah, now I know the region. Video: You must have picked up some Indians, some in some bits and pieces.
15:49:16 But you know India, you know it it's a kaleidoscope.
15:49:21 Culturally speaking, everything changes. You know. you get off a bus or a train 60 miles from where you got on, and the language is different.
15:49:30 The the customs of diet the Everything so That's what makes the place so fantastic.
15:49:36 I I think I referred to it earlier as the zenith of my traveling experiences, because genuinely otherworldly, you know just a crazy place that it's so easy to lose your old self and find other parts
15:49:50 of your new self. It was definitely a high watermark in in my traveling and cultural experiences in general I'm getting to goosebumps.
15:50:01 If you're talking about long time here, and describe it I I understand it, and I and i'm sorry that I cut you off as you as I had asked the question about like which if there was any specific tradition of meditation yeah there was niche andanda you know was the the elder and and the teacher of of
15:50:30 Muktonanda Baba Muktananda was the the teacher of Guru Mai and Guru Maya. I had studied with briefly at her as from the same one Begun by Nitianada in Maharashtra and I suppose.
15:50:37 just a moment. Just bear with me for a second Oh, of course, after you sang for us we'll wait.
15:50:52 No, the interview always gets good when someone runs to grab something
15:50:59 But this is long term region. is is beautiful and Then and of course, today you cannot cross between Tibet and Nepal unless you are Chinese.
15:51:13 Basically like you can't really cross the borders close but I went up to the point where they could see Tibet on the other side.
15:51:18 But I couldn't cross and on march these days, they completely close the borders of the bad foreigners, because it's the Independence, a celebration there's always revolts, but I went up to the edge of long term when
15:51:32 you could see the board of which, with the bat But it Couldn't Cross, and of course long term was the region that was very, very affected by the 1,005 for earthquake. was The up center lockdown village was raised It
15:51:42 was very sad, and I was there like 2 weeks before it happened.
15:51:47 So like give me the goose bumps talking about my so special yeah, I couldn't find a everything.
15:51:55 But i'm not sure if you can make out the the title of the book.
15:51:59 That is the book that was written by Muktananda, who was my teachers?
15:52:03 Guru and the gita Striggurgita. It's basically what I followed through the several weeks that I spent at the at the ice from. Thank you.
15:52:16 Thank you for sharing that I feel like i'm assuming it's like a one of the advice of it done. the tradition schools like of known duality. right so like connecting yoga to invite I
15:52:27 feel like it which is like I'm i'm doing a hammer. the point. But I feel like that tradition is about making connections between a creating community East and West and like I feel like it's fascinating
15:52:36 to to to think about those the implications of that the way you you set up the the series, and we were gonna get to this series soon enough.
15:52:47 Oh, yeah, we might have you in for the long haul.
15:52:53 So bear with us. We have lots and lots of questions.
15:52:58 And if you need to get water or a drink any time and there's no one is gonna send this videos are not Dg: 13, so you can get a drink.
15:53:04 So I think that's good to know anytime also you wanna take a break, whether it be for a bathroom break, or you just need to decompress.
15:53:14 We can always do that i'm having a ball let's just roll. Let's do it all right.
15:53:18 Well, I guess you've already touched a little bit on how that creative process then was, you know, really transformed during your time away.
15:53:27 And you know, alluding a little bit to like collaborations with people you're being on the way successful.
15:53:35 And also you know maybe songs are like i'd leave that by. But you know kind of stretching those creative muscles.
15:53:42 And obviously you're you're away for 10 years that's a very long time to try and wrap up.
15:53:54 Yeah, I I don't and I spent more often abroad than at home.
15:53:57 I didn't I didn't I came back regularly to refund, I would work for about 6 months.
15:54:08 Usually I would have need to to get enough to travel for another year abroad.
15:54:13 So that was my rhythm. 6 months at home 6 months or 9 months to a year.
15:54:19 Let's say, Okay, abroad, and then 6 months at home, and then another year abroad, and 6 months at home back and forth like that. Right?
15:54:26 I think I either remember a clip from the series or maybe read somewhere that you maybe part of that involved being a post post driver in Southern Ontario.
15:54:40 Maybe that's from a different time. But what was the odd jaws where you you were doing. Oh, I had lots of interesting jobs along the way, like most writers, I've had to make my bake in other ways for the most
15:54:51 part. and Yeah. the post office driving. I did by contract, so I was not paid.
15:54:59 Well, like real posty. but I drove straight nights, and it was.
15:55:05 It was from midnight to 8 I would drive all the way to London, Ontario, and back, which is about a 2 2 and a half hour.
15:55:13 Drive there and back and then I would have a 3 or 4 station stop in one direction and 3 or 4 station stop in another direction.
15:55:21 It was. It was a a good way to to. How could I describe it?
15:55:29 Find my you know, make enough money to to pay rent and whatnot, but to to
15:55:37 What was I needing to do? I was, needing at that point in my life to communicate myself as much as anything with a bit of the normal, because I've been such a you know, meditator slash psychedelic you
15:55:51 know shamanic, you know, singer, songwriter, guy.
15:55:57 I had transgressed, you know various norms that aren't the ones that you get rewarded for.
15:56:10 Basically, I actually did a little jail time. You know it just prior to my post office driving experiences.
15:56:15 And that was, you know, basically because I felt sharing pot with my friends was a was almost a duty, you know.
15:56:23 I I really felt like they needed you know those that didn't already have their own supply.
15:56:28 You. You know the benefit of my, you know, assiduous research in these subject.
15:56:34 So I I felt like I needed to to share the very best I could find with a fairly close circle of friends.
15:56:40 It's not like I was a a big dude I I've I've resented you know having to go to jail as a teenager, you know, for most of my life because of course it.
15:56:50 Colored, You know the experience of my adult life there were things that I didn't apply to do, because because I have.
15:56:59 You know every reason to believe I would not have been except accepted in that.
15:57:04 You know, just having a criminal record of any sort.
15:57:08 However paltry, and my in my case I felt it was, you know, a fairly small deal.
15:57:16 But you know a criminal record is a criminal record.
15:57:19 There are things that you cannot apply to do and you can't you know.
15:57:22 Visit certain places, and in any case, Yeah. Having spent 2 long months in jail, you know I I came out.
15:57:32 I moved into my friend marty's place we got a band together.
15:57:34 I was driving a truck for the post office, I was a citizen again.
15:57:41 That's what I meant by consoling myself I was finding a you know a little place for myself that that made sense. I'm thinking I was thinking about bureaucracies already when you talked about traveling for so long because that's one of the things that
15:57:55 you have to deal with, and I'm. assuming you had 2 passports, the Uk.
15:58:01 And the Canadian ones. But i'm i'm sure you had to do.
15:58:04 If you're sharing bureaucracies traveling as well. but it's interesting to know that it had to do with them as a at home with with the record and applying for jobs.
15:58:12 So I mean, I wonder if you want to just talk a little bit about derrickacies, and that's a topic that i'm passionate about.
15:58:18 But i'm sure you had your share. Oh, fed up with it most of my life.
15:58:24 Still not very well reconciled with bureaucracy.
15:58:27 I've actually written a novel fairly recently, that in which I I characterized slash name the the The governing body of half of the world, the Western half which I call nation is governed by
15:58:49 bureaucracy. it it's it's unseated democracy as a as a prevalent form of governance.
15:58:57 And Yeah, it's it's it's it's not all Orwellian or anything but Yeah, back in the day I can I could honestly say most of my travel had to do with escaping the
15:59:11 bureaucracy here at home, and and and the limitations. It was placing on my on my freedom.
15:59:19 Yeah, I didn't hear that that much abroad I I I because my my traveling was traveling proper.
15:59:28 It was not, you know, going and getting a job, and settling down and and learning a language, and staying in one place for very long.
15:59:37 I did a bit of that later in in in between degrees.
15:59:41 Actually, I spent a year in Paris. I was great, and you know.
15:59:44 But the most of my travel was literally moving from place to place continually on a you know.
15:59:51 Maybe bi-weekly basis for the better part of the year and thereby usually crossing a few borders in in a in a given trip.
16:00:02 And Yeah, I didn't experience a lot of problem. nothing to compare with the hassles that I would experience coming home to Canada.
16:00:12 I think I was curious, because, like a borders depending on the backend we're talking about in the types of borders you're talking about.
16:00:17 It is very different. right? so. But I just wanted to see How was the connection?
16:00:23 Yeah, in the time less less of an issue maybe than it is now.
16:00:28 I I couldn't stay with with authority but certainly if you didn't try to stay and work in a in a country.
16:00:36 Yeah, I didn't really experience any bureauucratic snarls myself. excellent and and depending on the passport you have, you can affect one way or another, of course, and it changes from con to change from Passport to parts it
16:00:48 doesn't matter So yeah, but I know that we are doing all the going through the world, and I know soon we're gonna write a Montreal.
16:00:56 So I wonder if there's any transition before we move into what broadly to Module, if there's any other questions about this period of life that we've forgotten to ask yeah I don't know about questions that are
16:01:09 missing. but I can describe the actual transition, and that was the product that I had come home from India.
16:01:19 That zenith of my travel. You know my 10 years travel
16:01:25 And I literally watched people from place to place in their busy lives.
16:01:32 For the better part of a year. I had a landscaping job that I that i'd go to and whatnot.
16:01:39 But I really I felt as though I were standing in one place for 6 months, watching people zoom past in various directions with their with their crazy, busy lives. India.
16:01:51 I suppose you know did that to me? But I think perhaps I had just, you know, arrived at that point somewhat naturally A.
16:02:01 I needed to soak in what was going on around me and do a lot less emoting, a a lot less expressing.
16:02:11 So I I didn't you know hold hold up in a in a room, and not go anywhere.
16:02:16 But I did have that sensation of being very much outside of the the mainstream, which I kind of always was outside the main street.
16:02:26 But outside of all the streams I was just very remote from from what was going on in South Central, Ontario, and Canada in general.
16:02:34 Maybe at that moment. Now, after 6 months of that it was funny because i'd i'd been renting a a room in a house that usually rented to Macmas or university, students I just gone down gotten up an
16:02:47 advertisement off the student housing board and
16:02:51 There was a spare room. There was a young woman in my hometown that needed a place to stay.
16:02:58 I told her about the spare room. We had a little bit of a relationship that summer at the end of which she was off to school, and it was literally, her, you know, determination to go off to university.
16:03:15 That made me go. Oh, yeah, I always thought i'd go to University.
16:03:18 I I guess I missed that step. and Yeah, I really scrambled.
16:03:22 It was probably not more than 2 or 3 weeks between the moment I realized. Hey, I should be doing some university work now before you know.
16:03:32 It's too late, and the day that I I got on the highway hitched at Montreal, and started that Concordia well, so that the application must have been an intense process, and like a a a a
16:03:45 but I mean really was. I enlisted the the the help of you know, a couple of people I knew a school teacher.
16:03:54 She encouraged me. no end you know all you're up you're a You're a natural you've got to go Your life won't be complete until you do type of thing and then yeah a couple other people
16:04:06 more recent graduates from university programs. i'd ask you about their experiences.
16:04:12 And and Yeah, I did I didn't have any any way to to gauge it other than other people's experience.
16:04:23 So I just asked, you know, like I wanna write, you know.
16:04:26 Where should I go? and you Know if i'd have been in the Us. I probably would have said the you know the the writers workshop in in Iowa, or something you know, but I think at the time there were
16:04:38 only 3 genuine writing programs in Canada there. Windsor and and the Ubc and Ccardi.
16:04:44 I think we're the only 3 full programs so I chose Concorded because it was in Montreal, and and that was as close to being out of Canada as you can get without leaving the country.
16:04:56 And of course I had. I developed a a endless, you know.
16:04:57 Appetite for for travel abroad and other cultures.
16:05:02 So montreal was a was a natural and yeah i'd i'd do do you remember like first impressions of horror.
16:05:12 I'm sure you had visited before to to play or to to visit You know what I hate to admit it, but I don't think i'd ever be to Montreal before I go to school
16:05:23 there, so must have been have quite a transition, quite a shock.
16:05:26 I would say that it was wild, I literally, you know, like it was 2 or 3 weeks, you know, getting ready, you know, having a little bit of help from my school teacher, friend, you know, to to fill out the applications and and figure out osap
16:05:38 versus Quebec loans and burgeries, and what not.
16:05:42 I didn't yeah, I didn't realize how easy it would be financially at first.
16:05:49 I mean I think i'd be 600 bucks a year for tuition.
16:05:57 You know, my first year There they doubled the next year and went up to like 1,600, I think, for my third year.
16:06:04 But yeah, because of the the tuition. freeze in Quebec until that 1989 moment.
16:06:13 I think. Yeah, I I benefited. I got in just in time for a couple of you know. tuition.
16:06:20 But yeah, no, I hitchhike there I got in what much later than i'd hoped.
16:06:25 So there was no, you know nobody waiting for me. No, you know real place to stay, so I can remember this little hotel down the bottom of San Diego, where the guy told me.
16:06:37 You know there was no rooms, and then watch me out of the corner, as I for the next 1520 min as I was probably not crying in my soup. But,
16:06:47 You know, Obviously, reflecting on what I should do before he he felt pity, gave me a room that he probably used himself, you know, to to sleep in the middle of his night auditors.
16:07:00 You know, shift. He probably got the chance to grab a few wings from time to time, so he probably had this room set aside in case I spent my first day in Montreal.
16:07:09 You know, free hotel room in this little place this little dive. In the next day I went to, you know, Cacardia, the the the people in what do they call it?
16:07:23 Not at all study second. what was I? Again I was continuing, continuing at or It was a Mcmaster.
16:07:38 I an actual writing workshop in their continuing education program.
16:07:41 But in any case, yeah, I was a I was a mature student.
16:07:44 So that mature students lounge and and counseling services where amazing!
16:07:54 And I I made sure to thank them in my my, my, in my various you know, stages working my way through both the amendment programs.
16:08:06 In any case. yeah, they were really good, They they they got me all reassured that I could do this, even though it was, you know, very late date date.
16:08:16 And yeah, it all kind of fell into place from there, you know.
16:08:19 I had a paid or friend who had a friend, that you had apartment way out of the east end of the city, which was dirt cheap, that I could.
16:08:28 You know just boss into and get underway it's very much the kind of eternal montreal tradition of someone having a friend who has a friend who has a has a room that you can crash in so it's it's funny
16:08:44 to hear like this kind of yeah, yeah, this kind of like triple education.
16:08:48 Of like, you know, going back to school but also getting used to a new city, and then also trying to figure out exactly where you are, and let's say, like you know, where you fall into what kinds of people you want to be around like
16:09:02 how yourself is changing and I mean obviously they're kind of 2 parts to this Concordia story. there's the Ba.
16:09:12 And then there's coming back to do your grad degree.
16:09:16 But you know, in at least in the early stages, did you find that you were also trying to get to know the reading scene in the poetry scene here, and Montreal, or to that comes later, when you were creative.
16:09:26 Writing students. Oh, no, no! I was going to readings right from the get.
16:09:29 Go off to the races, I had there's so many of my early experiences at Concordia were indelible.
16:09:45 I I hardly know you know what to choose to talk about.
16:09:49 But yeah. the the readings were us. were a staple.
16:09:55 I I started going immediately. and yeah, years later, when I when I was in inspired to to start enough, said it was virtually a response to Oh, yeah, I was so excited about the readings when I you know first arrived and I was a first
16:10:17 year student and i've gotten you know progressively more jaded because they're all breeding they're all you know from the lecturen from books, you know no animation no, no, you know no life in my
16:10:33 my, my very naive you know. take on it.
16:10:37 I just felt like the time. i'd come you know this We gotta We gotta do something for the streets, you know.
16:10:43 We gotta take the poetry out of the out of the library stacks and and and, you know, get it down to a street level, and that that's got a mean, you know, involving a lot wider variety of people in a lot
16:10:56 wider variety of disciplines, and you know I drew the line at that.
16:11:02 Oh, see you later. Faith Oh, bear with me I just my my internet's acting up So if I just appear for a second. I'm probably switching to something study keep going i'm hearing you though.
16:11:16 Yeah. So I had. I had drawn the line at singer songwriters and stand up comedians.
16:11:25 I just felt those were just a little too far out of the literary tradition to to qualify.
16:11:33 So, although I I wanted to use music as much as any other staging and costuming, and dramatic site, types of of manifestations that the the the text could could take I didn't want it
16:11:55 to devolve into, You know a a a whatever, a a a aky, you know, strum along type of thing, or a or a you know a stand up, you know, comic type of experience.
16:12:08 So those were the 2 extremes. I decided to exclude but I outside of that I really wanted to be as inclusive as I could, and I was, I think I think that's basically what was at the heart of enough said
16:12:25 Had it been just another reading series I don't think we would be talking to each other just now.
16:12:33 Oh, i'm that's fantastic because I feel like one of the questions they had in terms of inspiration for the series was I'm.
16:12:38 Sure there's something that there's an ideal that moves you, and you mentioned creating community taking poetry to it back to the streets in a way, but also as a reaction to other series Perhaps I wonder when you've got there.
16:12:49 Did you get to see a little bit of the oh did you get the end of the automaton festivals which were involved in the punk ultimatum doesn't ring a bell the urban
16:13:00 Wanderers Literary Reading Series Andre Farcus was was one of the
16:13:08 The the people that and far as what part of Vitamins as well.
16:13:20 Okay, organize it. Yeah, you know like i'm I'm aware I thought I was aware of a more punk oriented scene in the seventies that would have included, maybe the Clifford Duffy and and and
16:13:26 for Anderson and Ian Ferrier. people like that.
16:13:32 That was before my time before I even moved to the city.
16:13:34 But I know i've i've i've heard stories about you know.
16:13:39 Individual, you know, performances. maybe there was no actual series per se that featured spoken word performance.
16:13:49 But yeah, I I wrote on the coat tails of the urban wanderers popularity.
16:13:58 So I would give props to that that particular series, because they had established the the the venue at 40 40, Sam Laura.
16:14:11 Oh, God, my nice! My be stroke out.
16:14:19 Okay, thank you. My business. I was gonna say the sieve of my memory not serving well today.
16:14:24 But yeah, the beasts of Catholic had had had been a a stalwart, I guess, in that in that they had a regular Monday night series, and there was a guy named Danielle that ran the place as a He
16:14:37 managed the the venue or the he throw cats, and I just went out to them.
16:14:44 Then the last night, urban wanders, they announced it would be their final night, and I went up to Daniel.
16:14:49 I said, Come on you know you don't want to give up this 100 people, you know, on occasion 50 on a regular, you know, basis every Monday night about giving me a shot and i'll guarantee you know we'll do
16:15:02 at least as well, and he said sure it's all yours go for it.
16:15:08 And yeah, I had Bill visit, and Dina Karasik and a few other people on tap and and you know, within weeks I had them, you know, through Canada Council grants, and what not coming from from outside of the city at the same
16:15:21 time, as i'd already done you know my little stick at the at the beginning, and and i'd gotten tod Swift and and a few other people that were already comfortable behind the microphone, and and prepared to to you know do
16:15:34 features spots. And then, yeah, I just figured between them and and running an open mic. I would be I would be off and running. and yeah, before long the flood gates were open.
16:15:49 I I was getting lots of people from lots of different places.
16:15:52 And Yeah, there was a bit of, curating involved because there was a lot of stuff that you know you would you'd love to be, and entirely inclusive.
16:16:05 But you know, you're gonna get a lot of no whatever. Well, this this is fantastic, and we have questions about curation.
16:16:13 We have questions about financing Do you think we're gonna get to us. before it's completely transitioned into an upset.
16:16:19 I'm just curious about French like as soon as you've got to Montreal like what was the was it a shock?
16:16:22 Did you know it Did you learn it on the go because because sometimes I mean it's it's a bilingual series to some degree.
16:16:29 Right. You have a lot. Some a lot of others are bilingual.
16:16:32 So just just like to measure that. But yeah, I definitely would have loved it to be a thorough going bilingual.
16:16:39 Series. I think I did my best and and I don't feel it was nearly as strong on the on the French side as it could have been.
16:16:52 And I was happy when what's your name Mitsu. No, and that was the Mexico Mexico. So thank you. I was so happy when she started up Lavasha Rajay because yeah.
16:17:01 she really filled in that to that lack and But your relationship to French did you know
16:17:36 Trial by fire type of experiences so behind me already when I arrived in Montreal, so I was no by no means be a bilingual then.
16:17:43 And and now that many years have passed I i'm not sure I could claim to be altogether bilingual anymore.
16:17:50 It comes back very rapidly. if I have myself in a in a setting, you know, for a couple of weeks there, where French is the is the predominant language.
16:18:00 I could speak quite well, and I can carry on conversations and rooms with several different people, which is very difficult for me to do at the moment.
16:18:09 But I made sure, and had a a French course in each semester of my first year at Concordia, and I made sure all my girlfriends were on the Quebec was side of town that was That that
16:18:24 was my route to French immersion, No, exactly. I would say, Yeah, right and true.
16:18:34 Yeah, I feel like I i have a theory that you have to fall in love into it with something to learn a language whether it's a person, a city or a writer that's the only 3 ways or I guess if
16:18:43 you're hungry there's the fourfoot if you're hungry. you'll learn any language.
16:18:47 But besides that, you got a fall in love. But, Faith, and you have some very interesting questions about the curation and and fight finances.
16:18:55 I want to maybe start the finances
16:19:02 That's all right. Can you think about it for just a second, .
16:19:05 Got an unruly pet that needs feeding he'll just make a nuisance of himself, and take your time
16:19:18 It's going great guys
16:19:26 There we go. it'd be nice to hear about some more of the first readings that he attended.
16:19:30 I think, Yeah, that's that's exactly what yeah Okay, Oh, all good.
16:19:35 Okay, Bob, and I I think one thing that I want to ask, too was like
16:19:41 Jason also prompted us as well was you froze sorry.
16:19:51 Do you want me to open my microphone and my back Okay, I'm so sorry it's I don't really know what's going on with my laptop.
16:19:58 I might have to disappear to. We could transfer you to here to to a microphone if you stops again.
16:20:03 But go ahead, I think it's well let me just ask my question first, and i'll do some behind the scenes work. but like what was like a typical essentially like couple of weeks or month of like readings like essentially do you remember some of
16:20:16 those like readings that you were like first starting to meet people like for storing an encounter like the swift people bizarre guys, for example, like Todd Swift and todd was actually
16:20:35 Yeah. What was that? What was that Seem like?
16:20:35 What were memorable moments of that scene. Right? I mean.
16:20:39 I can remember, going to several readings in the lobby.
16:20:47 In the back, actually not the front, but the room in the back of the hall building on the ground floor was used quite frequently for readings.
16:20:57 I I can remember going to the yellow door the the little fky coffee house venue in the in the Mcgill Ghetto.
16:21:11 The yeah, Todd actually is funny. You would mention Swifty and
16:21:16 And Todd was actually in a in a class or 2 of mine.
16:21:20 First semester, you know English classes. and Yeah.
16:21:25 We became somewhat friendly. I just as just as fellow students.
16:21:33 But I I didn't actually hear him read for probably a couple of years after my arrival there.
16:21:41 But it he was obviously much more. I know you guys are doing things.
16:21:50 But, Jason, am I audible? No, you are totally audible just trying to transfer the headphone of Faith to here.
16:21:55 Give me one thing because they're gonna switch the hook up.
16:21:58 We have 2 headphones now. can I let me get this one?
16:22:00 And I I I made note of where you Were Let me see this we're gonna look much more professional now.
16:22:08 1 s let's see this is the end Let's try say something, both of you.
16:22:15 Let let's see i'm still here. not yet We'll hear This is damn 19.
16:22:26 This is the links, and I have to turn off the links off.
16:22:29 We have a lot of options here that's right now Oh, I have to switch on zoom one more second, because now Zoom has the preferences as well.
16:22:40 Audio internal headphones and night now should work let's try again.
16:22:45 I could hear both of you for perfect perfect now we can.
16:22:49 Okay, you. Now, thank you. Sorry about that. We Yeah, There you go now.
16:22:55 Perfect early reading experience talking about todd yeah, Todd, you know He he!
16:23:07 He had a very cheap little place in in in God, my memory again the little place I I was right beneath at water market, and so technically still part of that neighborhood.
16:23:22 But under the freeway, in fact, on cell. be it so.
16:23:26 The only little street I think, that survived. There was only 2 houses, I think, and I got a place in one of them.
16:23:32 But he was a little further down. not Irish channel that's that's New Orleans.
16:23:36 What the hell is the name of that Irish neighborhood.
16:23:39 But he lived in Henry He was down in St. Henry.
16:23:49 In any case, Yeah, we we we just became drinking buddies and yeah, he had.
16:23:55 He was one of those guys that just exuded poetry, you know.
16:23:59 He. he was obviously so. so well read so much earlier in life that myself that I you know I I kind of went.
16:24:07 Oh, now Todd has got to be a friend, you know.
16:24:09 He might be a difficult one, but he's gonna be a friend, and for sure we became fast friends, and I think he would be.
16:24:17 We would still refer to be as much as well, even though we have, you know, completely different styles.
16:24:22 I I guess we had no end of of mutual enjoyment, and not only each other's company, but in the in the places and people that we that we frequented together.
16:24:36 So yeah, I don't know you know They They were they were really just a a mishmash of of individual events.
16:24:43 It was no series per se that I can recall. At least you know that I could myself in. and no, it was really the lack of one that that sort of inspired me to to put together an upset urban wanders was a bistro cat
16:24:59 and you mentioned yellow door and like maybe maybe it's like What's Reggie's, now, or something like, you know.
16:25:05 But on the in the hall building. Are there any other? any other venues?
16:25:11 Some ghosts the storn away oh, storn away.
16:25:14 Yeah, that was a good one. there were a number of loft spaces, you, you know, that didn't have names.
16:25:22 Yeah, I I can't think now of any other specifically literary performance. sort of venues now. and Jason, you edited with Quad before you you did a several projects to start as well right Jason
16:25:41 well I knew, taught as a student, too. so I think the way lead characterized.
16:25:46 His friendship with Todd is matches mine exactly including the not necessarily an easy friend, Butwith each other's company for sure.
16:25:56 Yeah, But yeah, I mean it was. It was just fantastic that pod could pick up, you know.
16:26:07 That Mr. Brown could pick up and mexico all picked up. I'll all right on the heels of of enough said, and with it overnight we had you know a huge scene you know it was wasn't just my little
16:26:22 Monday night gathering. It was, you know, really something that was obviously going to last, and something that was always going to involve.
16:26:31 You know hundreds of people right and can I just record those names so I know It's Sequel Miller correct and Mexico, because Midseco appeared in in one of the enough sets here.
16:26:41 You have a recording you had all these people in Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, Mexico.
16:26:47 So the name of the series, The midst was started. What was it again?
16:26:48 In first vash on Rajay perfect, and the other in the others. see in the others.
16:26:53 As you mentioned, Jake Brown ran something he called yop yeah. they didn't know that one as well.
16:27:05 Oh, yeah, it was a that was a very well attended, very animated, often risque series.
16:27:11 He. He was probably the the biggest grinder, you know.
16:27:14 He he did the promotion like nobody's business and he enlisted, you know a lot of young people to help.
16:27:23 But yeah, he had a real knack for it. I think one of the time last time I ever read on stage it was for Jake at at that beautiful concert venue.
16:27:35 What was that called? Was it club soda? No.
16:27:39 Or was somewhere else no old place with a with a great big 360 balcony that ran around it.
16:27:47 Oh, God! The bomb down the bottom is saying to me, oh, metropolis, maybe which is what?
16:27:53 Okay close, though, as far as the look of the venue, and not quite that large, much older like you remember the period, maybe for Jake Jake Series.
16:28:04 Oh, within a year or 2 of my finishing
16:28:16 And then Jake and they ran concurrently, and then Mexico got .
16:28:21 So that's great to have a timeline in a in in our minds with this because yeah, no.
16:28:26 And if you have I mean we should have asked this i'm, sure, we will ask you as a follow-up as well, if you have materials, i'm sure you might have posters or documents from and not only enough set but
16:28:36 some of this other series, We wanted we want to scan all of that. Yeah, I don't have nearly.
16:28:44 I mean I do have stuff that I can't somehow I just can't dig it up.
16:28:48 You know my archives are not well organized but i've got a few things set aside that I would definitely feel fine just i'd like to hang on to a couple of them the I put a lot of effort into that one I just showed
16:29:04 you. That was one of the few that I that I actually felt like.
16:29:07 Hey? I really nailed it There, That was a that was a piece of route
16:29:20 Billy the cartoonist to to to do most of his posters.
16:29:28 We actually have a full set of the op posters. in the lab guys, it's an acquired taste, you know, But Billy definitely churned him out man.
16:29:43 They They had a different poster for every gig, and they were all one of a kind, and all very ornate, very elaborate things.
16:29:51 Oh, God, if I could show you the first, you know enough, said Poster.
16:29:56 And now you would laugh because great to see no it was it was created as a piece of concrete poetry.
16:30:02 I guess you'd call it matrix printer and it just said spoken.
16:30:07 We're spoken we're you you know it didn't start with spoken it started with word probably or something and and it all kind of just filled us fair. So I had a sphere of spoken word and
16:30:20 that was. it didn't even have the name for it at the time.
16:30:24 Enough, said but if you do have even if you don't a a I mean the decision to donate to not donate documents to to concord, and it's a different decision, but regardless of that if you would like to
16:30:33 scale those things and send to us, we'd love to to add it somehow find everything that's worthy of note and and i'll definitely do that. because we can add to the tapes when it deposit demo solo
16:30:46 is illustration as related materials to give a full set of English. and the Boston is so precious, just so precious, absolutely I mean, Yeah. I mean on that note, too, like knowing that he were all this kind
16:31:00 of like extra like elbow greece I Guess you were putting into this series way beyond, just like what happens on the night like you know, what was the when we were we're gonna come back to some of the finance things that you were
16:31:12 talking a little bit about, and some of the coordination you would do with other folks, but like, especially because this is a week to week event, which I feel like at this point, as someone who organizes poetry readings monthly that's already like up to
16:31:25 my ears. I can only imagine the kind of regularity like you know.
16:31:28 What was that like, Dale, or that daily kind of coordination, like of getting, you know, things together propping for the week.
16:31:39 You know what was on your to-do list? Typically, when you were getting ready for for Monday night.
16:31:46 Like? Who did you have to contact? those kinds of details?
16:31:50 And also what were you balancing at the same time? I imagine school was some of that working, perhaps.
16:31:56 Yeah, I wish I could, you know. I wish I could.
16:32:00 Paid a a good detailed picture of you know the those concerns having trouble is you're asking this question.
16:32:10 It was a blur, and and i'm not even sure I was in school at the time.
16:32:14 I thought it might have taken place between my degrees it couldn't have entirely because I went away for a year.
16:32:24 I was in Paris for a year, so it would have been 95.
16:32:28 I guess I spent in Paris, probably 95, 96.
16:32:33 I I would have begun enough, said I think, and
16:32:38 Then I really I was just. I was just pulling, pulling in favors and and and and and the following up.
16:32:46 You know, strings of of communication and and community.
16:32:52 I think the the actual effort of yeah going up and down the main poster, you know, was was a was a fair bit of time involved in that, I guess.
16:33:05 But all the all the hours I spent on the phone talking to.
16:33:09 You know poets in different parts of the country and and setting up, you know, gigs for them to come to as well as all of the just being on the scene being out in in the in the community is is what I that's
16:33:27 what would qualify as as my my methodology. I I just went from from place to place, and and met as many people as I could, writing in both languages.
16:33:39 Interested in in in life Performance didn't have an office or anything like you know, an assistant.
16:33:55 But I did have a couple of people that helped at the door, and I did start.
16:33:58 I think it was midway through, I think, when when I realize, hey, this is really subsuming me, taking all my you know, time in there.
16:34:10 I did start charging a buck, a night at the door he's a dollar admission from about halfway through the series.
16:34:17 And Yeah, Sometimes that went straight to you know, a visiting artist, and sometimes it went straight to poster and and you know it never amounted to more than like 50 bucks on a week.
16:34:31 But you know it was something just to offset to, you know, efforts and expenses.
16:34:36 Yeah, I didn't really have a a like I go to you know list of things that I had to do on a weekly basis.
16:34:47 I'm sure I ticked you know as many of the necessary boxes as I could, and I heard about it.
16:34:54 If i'd overlook somebody you know probably within a week or 2, you know, I would have them up on this stage.
16:35:00 Because there was some, i'm sure there's some logistics, or more complicated when you brought for example gift from Joseph to from when and or he came from the 401 and a brother folks from Toronto over so
16:35:11 i'm. sure there was some some logic or slightly more complicated. Did you get any partnerships to help with Now You know how enthusiastic po poets are to be read you know it Doesn't Take much to get
16:35:24 it done, you know, Honestly, couple of phone calls, and Clifton was my butt.
16:35:29 You know, we had a very, you know, instantaneous rapport we still do to this day.
16:35:35 And yeah, it was not easy to er. It was not hard to convince him to come.
16:35:40 I mean he wanted to be paid. He was one of the he was one of the the guys that was convinced that you know what we do.
16:35:46 Is as important as any other creative artists work. Yeah.
16:35:51 So he he made sure that I got on the on the Canada Council, And And you know that got the the travel grant for him.
16:36:00 Yeah, aside from having to do that, for you know I did that for Bill Bisett and for a Dean of Karastic.
16:36:05 And you know there there are people that you know we we wanted to to include because they were such exemplars.
16:36:12 You know they they just did things, you know, on a on a professional and creative level that set them apart.
16:36:21 I had to include them and and then there were, you know, just like the tick for tat, you know.
16:36:29 Jill Batson, who organized so much great work in in Toronto, was a natural, You know I didn't know Jill personally, but I knew what she was up to just through the Grapevine and
16:36:41 was. It was no trouble at all, you know, to to to get on the phone or introduce myself and and and suggest maybe we should.
16:36:50 Do you know something at either end of the highway, you know.
16:36:54 Bring her through down and and take mind in her direction. Oh, Jason, yes, actually I might have to borrow and i'm thinking about.
16:37:05 Let me see if I find here, would you? That was when oh, oh, my God!
16:37:09 There was Yes,
16:37:21 and and I love doing the press right? So he was Yeah yeah, No, he added, Everything everything and you bet. So I love.
16:37:25 The way you introduced? you the what is it i'd almost forgot about the Ted Yeah, no, it's so it's so good.
16:37:38 And then Oh, yes, so Jews now working on, going from High Priest to poetry, God the status in 1995.
16:37:46 And then, and then Geo comes. in so when I become God is i'm gonna be Madonna of poetry. that's what I needed for.
16:37:53 Yeah, So it's. But yeah, no this is great this is good.
16:37:57 I have one more question, because we also have a couple of surprises.
16:38:00 But we planned in advance.
16:38:03 But I think there were a couple of folks in the and I think there will be a whole, you know, we're hoping at some point we can send a few faces of people that we haven't been able to identify to you as well
16:38:15 as to folks like Ian Ferrier, who know the scene well.
16:38:18 But because you often will see some of these people, even like weekly at these open mics, and identifying some of those faces will be really great.
16:38:26 But there were a few people, though, that we do know that we were interested, especially in the local scene.
16:38:30 We're hearing more about for example, I think one of the recurring presents throughout the series is the fluffy pagan echoes.
16:38:40 For example, yeah, just mcgrail victory Stanton vince kingly. Oh, i'm forgetting the 2 other guys got Duncan Yep. and
16:38:55 Another fellow who ran yes, and just because also, I think, too, coming from this book like we, we both come from spoken work, backgrounds, or you know, experience a spoken word and and different capacities like, you know, slam will
16:39:08 still have, for example, you know, performance collectives and or you know doing performances together.
16:39:14 But it's not super common anymore necessarily to have like a kind of more formalized book, more collective. And it's been really great to see a kind of work like through the series.
16:39:26 So just wondering like what your personal experience with the members look lucky.
16:39:29 Pagan echoes was like growing up next, or with them as artists
16:39:37 Unlike everyone else, they had a group, and they had a venue.
16:39:46 Prior to enough said there was a little restaurant right across the street on the second story of a building up above.
16:39:51 Schwartz is, I think, called the Phoenix, the Phoenix Cafe, and it was an extraordinary place, I mean, it was so rootsy.
16:40:02 It was ridiculous you could smell it in the air when you walked up to before he even opened the door. the place, and i'm not talking about pot i'm talking about it's genuine you know
16:40:16 grass roots they were they were freedom fighters.
16:40:24 It ran that place I didn't know any of them personally that all of the echoes would have known the much better than I did.
16:40:30 But they had. yeah, they had done their thing, their fluffy, pagan echo performance.
16:40:36 Art at that place at least a couple 3 times before I had approached them to to, you know, to do one of the first nights of of enough, said they were one of my first feature artists as I
16:40:50 recall. huh? Yeah. great people passionate about what they were doing really well organized.
16:41:02 I know Scott's girlfriend of the time helped him organize something prior to Blue Montreal.
16:41:12 I think, or the Blue Hotel, Jason, you help me out here.
16:41:17 There was a yeah, a metropolis festival. blue metropolis was it?
16:41:26 Was it Scott and and Jasmine that did that, or what they did was prior to that.
16:41:29 I think that was prior to that. I think it was Linda Leaf actually, who was one of the founders.
16:41:34 Yeah, but they did something else very large scale They pulled down a bunch of funding from some government body. and they they yeah, they did a big thing. It was.
16:41:47 It was sort of a one of those Oh, here we could take it to the next level, as far as establishment goes, and that blue metropolis would have been another example.
16:41:56 A little later on, I remember I was going to that and hearing hearing yourself and and the todd there any case, and if you remember, it's like the bit of the night.
16:42:09 Should, should it us any nail with the day because, like remember, if you remember the name of this other festival that Scott's girlfriend helped her but you don't have to
16:42:18 anything, anything, anything you do want to add Later, and we hope to have more than one interview of It's impossible to cover everything. but we haven't even asked you about Providence of the archive.
16:42:28 So far the conversation drew a huge digressor. So you guys are gonna have We had some some questions, but we are going with you right there. we have no agenda.
16:42:44 We have no agenda we have no agenda we have no agenda. We have no agenda. We've had some some questions. But we are going with you right there. Yeah, I I am a way of your time. So I wonder like because Jason. I wonder if there's any specific questions.
16:42:55 About No? Well, really, the only thing is if you wanted to say a word about why you decided to record the series in the first place, because not all of them were recorded right?
16:43:07 Why you chose to do it with video maybe that's obvious.
16:43:09 But i'd love to hear that and what you imagined like might happen with those videos afterwards.
16:43:15 Yeah, it's an interesting aspect of the project because I Honestly, I I got on the phone to Drew Duncan just the day before yesterday. I think because I knew this was coming up and I wanted to just let them know what I was
16:43:33 doing that. I you know you know, begun the process of having you.
16:43:39 The all the materials archived and whatnot through your auspices there, and that he should feel free to to have some.
16:43:49 Input We immediately had a long, you know, conversation that had nothing to do with enough set.
16:43:57 Just got ourselves caught up together. but honestly, you know, either I asked him or he suggested.
16:44:03 You know he could do it, and it's as simple as that Yeah, he was there religiously, I think he probably didn't miss a night, you know, in in the in the right, in the sweet spot in the in the Central you know weeks of
16:44:18 that series before I started doing events off location in in various other places.
16:44:27 And and Todd began doing his with his thing called again.
16:44:31 Jay's box on yeah in that in that period. after I had done enough said for about a year solid There was a short period where I began doing events in various other venues in different sorts of events
16:44:51 and and Yeah, it was right around that time that Todd started up the box hunt because there was nothing else going on on a regular basis.
16:45:01 So he got that going, and yeah, the rest of his history as they say, but also i'll try to fill in as many gaps as I can.
16:45:08 But again, I I honestly you know can't remember if Drew suggested he could do it, or if I just straight up, asked him.
16:45:17 He must have been there with a camera or just I think he just asked, Hey, You know I got a little mini camp, you know.
16:45:26 Do you want me to come in and record all this on Super 8?
16:45:28 And I said, Yeah, let's do it so this was one year into the series, just trying to get right at the beginning.
16:45:39 Yeah. he came at the he came to the first one I guess I'm gonna have to have another call, or I can.
16:45:45 I can suggest you get in touch with you guys because he's a great he's a font of of information.
16:45:58 Generally speaking, he had a a a regular show on on the on the on campus radio, where he jazz.
16:46:07 For the most part he knew my brother before before we actually met very well, through his, through his zoo through all his music.
16:46:18 And yeah, he he was a bit of an archivist himself, you know, It's got a huge collection of of stuff at in his apartment, I remember.
16:46:26 Walls of vinyl and walls of tapes and everything.
16:46:31 He was a real good collector. Wow! and then like can't underestimate too. especially from our working with Ian Ferrier, like the importance of campus radio at this time.
16:46:41 Also for like linking up with people And yeah, cultivating shared interest, spreading that kind of stuff and having, like a sense of like local community.
16:46:52 Before. I Guess like the way that's the Internet works in that kind of similar way for us now. and Yeah, and and it's it will be.
16:46:59 It will be fantastic. We could. We could talk to to Drew because of that archival impulse.
16:47:04 He seems to very clearly have from the the video so now that you're describing to us that's really amazing.
16:47:13 Just a really last technical proven else? question, because we know that the the super 8 videos were then transferred right to Vhs So if we cause we do include sort of technical information on the actual material
16:47:24 artifact. So any information you could tell us about that media migration and sort of yeah, when that happened? And who did it?
16:47:32 Did you transfer them, or it was someone else. Oh, Jordan, I I remember this was several many years later.
16:47:37 I I was worried about the integrity of the vhs format and losing stuff just through tape degradation.
16:47:49 And i'm gonna have to think i'm gonna have to try.
16:47:58 And remember now exactly how i'd I think I did it myself, like I did it at home in Toronto.
16:48:03 We had moved to Toronto from San Francisco, my wife and I, and I think it was then that I realized, Oh, shit!
16:48:11 These things shouldn't be travel traveling and stored in and you know variously unprotected circumstances any longer.
16:48:20 And then I should. yeah, at least get them on to.
16:48:23 To if yeah, another tape format at first, was the answer that went to Vhs: Yeah.
16:48:31 And then we did. Then we digitize them, I mean, if you did them yourself.
16:48:35 The thing about that I learned from different media formats and archiving them.
16:48:41 Is that video like if you did it yourself by just hooking up a video, you know, machine a a camera to your Vhs machine like it would be pretty much the same as sending it out to be done professionally like
16:48:53 there's there's really not much loss so it's it's only the digitization part that was important to get done professionally, but like I definitely didn't Yeah, I definitely didn't send them anywhere and
16:49:03 pay money Does the original tapes to exist? the the super 8 or the the minute to V.
16:49:11 Do you know, and you might as well ask I don't think so? we talked last year. You sounded more sure that they didn't.
16:49:20 But But where would they go? This is the trouble.
16:49:23 Maybe Jude does have them? got this blanks just in case just might as well, because I mean, i'll be curious. and the reason why it's not necessarily because of quality because I mean what they will have what
16:49:34 we have the question is i'm curious about the first organization. of those, because now now we have sometimes 5 events in one tape, and I wonder if how that decision was made.
16:49:46 Well, i'm pretty sure I try to stick to the chronology, the event. Yeah.
16:49:52 I don't think I yeah there's nothing just sort of thrown in there randomly, hey? you know. Maybe I've got all those mini dv tapes.
16:50:03 Still not many dvd but super 8 sorry yeah, it's a process and like part of it is just like sometimes you come across something that you didn't realize you had or maybe you're like, i'm pretty sure I
16:50:15 have it, and you're like nope that's gone like it's lost history.
16:50:25 Well, i'll just say yes I will i'll sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you, but like we will be moving towards establishing like a league.
16:50:28 Gotham Fall in the special collections at concordia where we're going to deposit the actual tapes, and they're gonna also have all preservation copies of the digitization digitizations But
16:50:39 it'll be open for you if you ever want to add things to it.
16:50:41 It's just a cool place for you to know like they'll keep it in perpetuity, so they'll hold these things forever.
16:50:51 And that's what i'd hoped you know it's amazing and and documents and bolsters and other things.
16:50:54 Not necessarily all the video, but fee supplemental do, maybe on like, Maybe you have the notes of bill business from the day whatever you want to like.
16:50:59 Make a cop in the Bosses somewhere so that could be for example. Yeah, that's what the reason we have all those yacht posters is because Billy Billy has been starting to deposit all of his posters and stuff.
16:51:13 That relate to the scenes you know so they're really like the it's a cool yeah collection.
16:51:14 It's great that they're growing around the same time yeah.
16:51:20 Shall we show show like some snippets? And this is just a a first like we.
16:51:29 We have 4 little, very short keeps that just wanna show we don't even have to go for all of them.
16:51:32 But just where i'm sure you're curious and the way we set up.
16:51:35 We have like a hard drive, or if you have a few copies, but we both e internally for Faith, Jason and I online, just for Concordia.
16:51:43 So we have to do a few things to be able to open up outside of recording for you to take a look at the viewers, and we'll do soon.
16:51:50 But for now a a I just we just wanna share our screen with you and show you a a few clips, surely just like the Oh, wow!
16:52:01 Moment of forget to share a computer sound as well Oh, yeah.
16:52:05 So hold on. let me come share and do it again.
16:52:09 Yeah, let me yeah, share sound I wonder why didn't they make this automatic just like I always wanted to share something.
16:52:16 But okay, thanks, Jason, for that. Oh, No don't make me do that, Jason?
16:52:22 You might. You might have to do it. jason or or I didn't.
16:52:30 Jason is actually asking us for the admin password of here to be able to share the zoom device.
16:52:35 But I don't. know if it's the zoom an admin, or it is the computer admin. I. Of course this happens with Zoom, but in the meantime I will share the screen with you so you can see
16:52:56 Okay, Okay, so love it. Okay. So before audio, at least you get to I can see.
16:53:03 Yeah, I can see your head as I mentioned so if I play you're not gonna be able to hear right now.
16:53:08 But I don't think you would be able to hear right I cannot Okay, that's okay, Jason's coming to rescue us in a second.
16:53:15 But at least you can see this is the very first Yeah, the Sam Shalabi .
16:53:24 Do on the right, though, and and also I feel like you didn't even have set up this stage yet. I feel like it's one of the first is trying to still figure out how to use this space, and then later I think
16:53:38 God, Jason is here Well, what i'm just stop, shared Jason.
16:53:45 Share again, because what they say is this: share sound? And then he asked me for this.
16:53:53 Let me see if he works. It is so funny to see how same she lobby man, just to be in every single sea.
16:54:05 How do I get to the past? Oh, sorry. Yep: Yeah. Okay. Sorry.
16:54:09 I had the mouse on me perfect Do you want us to take the head?
16:54:17 Do you want to go back there? We stay here. Go back.
16:54:18 Okay, is there a you hear about Lee? Can you hear Noly?
16:54:27 Oh, okay, let me see. try. Let me see this maybe it's just too low your screen share.
16:54:36 Let me see 1 s doing a lot of introducing.
16:54:41 But yeah, it's too bad it's up later?
16:54:46 Should I try again? Do you think this is gonna get saved?
16:54:48 Yes, it will Okay, So let me try i'll try one more time, because and stop and stop
16:55:00 Let's see. Okay, share. sound I don't know maybe dropdown?
16:55:06 Just do whatever it gives us let's try one more time, Yes, yes, yes, Okay, because we don't want to make too loud.
16:55:19 Otherwise we are going to suffer here. certainly self comfortable.
16:55:30 So this was just before I think the the holidays cause you do a little bit of a a kind of merry Christmas happy holidays to folks at the end.
16:55:40 And You're talking you talk a little bit about do the series that year, and kind of grateful this which is really it's really interesting.
16:55:50 There's like There's already kind of like you know a sensor rapport, or something between like the audience.
16:55:57 And you, like a sense of like this is a recurring event.
16:56:00 Yeah. And And this is a This is another video. I want to show real quick.
16:56:04 I think this is for me. and so doing a interesting introduction here for for you for a meeting that you do.
16:56:15 Let's hope this is gonna work too i'm gonna make this larger for you.
16:56:19 Oh, excuse me! Oh, that we can We are still working through this, but we can share with you that as well.
16:56:35 I don't know how many of you have been around St.
16:56:36 Louis for the last several years. is chance. Stay here the chance of here still in the room. Oh, we just stepped up. Well, there were a couple of readings that have gone on up and down State one street over the last several years off the
16:56:48 Boulevard. Chancing Peter worked on for a long time.
16:56:53 The current and incarnation is a wonderful series of readings that occur each Monday night.
16:56:59 9 o'clock at the east coast Cat corner Duluth and St.
16:57:05 Lawrence, their curated, managed to put together by our next reader.
16:57:13 Lee got them hailing from Britain cared much, We all know.
16:57:18 5 years i'd like you all to welcome believe thank you off.
16:57:30 This is good that I think it is name it's too.
16:57:39 All you guys are going to give me a flashback are good.
16:57:46 If you want us to pause, it can buy. Oh, yeah, if you miss a line in a pole or a song, nobody's gonna notice right.
16:57:54 We get wasted in alleyways, drung out of Blytheus, cranked up and stereo syringes dangling from each exposed forearm. Yukimo mishima spilled his
16:58:13 guts. The difference is, is not, and never was the conspiracy prescription smack doctors, orders.
16:58:30 Well, a conspiracy prescription dollar is just look like the confidence, and like really truly, until there's a point where you're like
16:58:57 I until you go. Yeah, that's Not coming to me I think i'm gonna try something else like it I was like certain like, Yeah, he knows exactly what he's doing. it's it's so, funny too, because I think what what kind
16:59:12 of comes out to me, and, of course, i'm not the person on stage, Just how comfortable you look, and also like the the kind of killness in the room, though, like you know, you come back later, and you you say the poem from a piece of paper, and
16:59:27 you're like, Yeah, like this. Let's just look the way it is, which I think like that is very commendable and definitely sure I can remember Ian Stevens dressing me down on that occasion.
16:59:40 Like Oh, really, what are you even doing behind a microphone?
16:59:48 You Can't, remember the fucking material where do you think you're going with it.
16:59:52 That's particularly harsh because you steve's performances are brilliant.
16:59:59 I think people don't live in just like his i'm sure there would be a whole interview that's almost to ian and ean's memory and Oh, yeah he's he's in he's in
17:00:14 oh, yeah, no! And if we have 2 more short clips, if you don't mind one that is one of my favorites and one that is Faith's favorite. this is one of my favorites, I also like face favorites, as well But this one is just for
17:00:21 me it's like very it's amazing so let's see if we can
17:00:30 Remember this
17:00:50 I was still a kid good boy. it's lynn Sutherman right and and and then Senator goes on to read an amazing piece about the the the field and the city like the urban in the rural areas and in
17:01:08 between and it's a and I don't think it has ever been published.
17:01:12 It's like it's just incredible so but like if anyone calls it, comes from the window with a change on nowadays.
17:01:21 You would run, but this somehow makes perfect sense, and then and then they send them.
17:01:24 It goes on to show like a little one. say like this is my key change.
17:01:27 I saw I just I just think it's amazing and yeah, I just it's looking about the clip.
17:01:37 I'm just like that really just goes to show some of the what feels like the halcyon days, or something of like the referendum? Did you know about the referendum event?
17:01:51 No. there's there's a bit of talk about the series, about the referendum at the time, and like the kind of you know, it's upcoming it's a loomingness and some quebec
17:02:02 politics that are happening, especially like for example I I was the one who transcribed the performance party poetry party one that has you and fortnight Anderson Ean Farrey in stevens a few other folks and there's a
17:02:16 andrefarcus isn't it andre farcus talks very, you know, in his very classic no bullshit style.
17:02:21 That is his feelings about the referendum, and also talking to some other people who, you know, moved Montreal all the time.
17:02:32 Oh, oh, please, we need a scanner This is an event that I
17:02:45 I basically approached the city, I got a permit to do an outdoor event in the
17:02:50 Saint Louis Square part family. you know between between Syndney and and sailor on there's a little park down just above Sherbrook.
17:03:00 Anyway, I had applied. I jumped through all the bureaucratic hoops. You know I've gotten this arranged.
17:03:08 And yeah, it was supposed to feature Michelle Lefeb, Norman of Rodsky,
17:03:16 Ellen Monette todd swift and like A. and they mixed it right at 11 they they said No, you're not.
17:03:24 You're not gonna do this like they got they got this I you know sense that you know politically.
17:03:32 It was not, you know, coastsher and I shouldn't be able to do this, It never gave me a like a decent to explanation.
17:03:56 Yeah, we didn't know about that at all
17:03:57 Yeah, we didn't know about that at all because there was a build up towards the information we know which is a whole like, So it's it's funny the the kind of
17:04:13 like there's like a a meta-nemic quality or something.
17:04:17 And like the event that doesn't happen and then the referendum that passes as a we, we stay.
17:04:25 And then yeah, and then and then things just move fun and like, and it's it's interesting to know that, too, when it's it there is a quality that seems to when I when I talk to
17:04:37 writer who are who moved to montreal all the time or writing, went through all the time.
17:04:42 But there's this kind of wild west quality to the poetry scene, and maybe that is part of the nostalgia.
17:04:49 But it's I think it also has to do with like the uncertainty and the people are willing to experiment in that sort. So that's that's always really interesting and to connect that I feel like your curation.
17:05:01 Which we talk briefly. I feel like talk about the origins of our wedding flesh, your creation style.
17:05:05 But even though it's a moment of great division linguistic division, some degree right. but at the same time I feel like the approach, even though, was primarily Anglo phone, I mean there was so much diversity that you brought to
17:05:18 the table or to the stage in this case, that the that feels very different from other series that I that we we are a guy.
17:05:26 Certainly I would think it was Yeah, somewhat unique in its way.
17:05:33 Because yeah, I remember you know like i'm jackalbacco, and and people like that who just you know they they were seasoned performers who just didn't have a venue.
17:05:44 You know they they they had a venue if they wanted to do something, you know, for a francophone audience, but not if they wanted to.
17:05:52 You know, access. Our people, you know, you know this is too, too rich as resource to just you know overlook absolutely and in mid-secoamila, as you mentioned, comes in there's a bilingual performance, and you brought people from
17:06:06 Ontario to and and then but there is. There is a something intentional about it that shines through the series.
17:06:13 That is not about control is really about something else.
17:06:17 Giving back ready community, I would say that comes across very clearly to to us what my intention was bringing a lot of people together.
17:06:26 I've always identified as the lover not a fighter guy, you know.
17:06:31 So yeah, there was a lot of controversy, and there was a lot of you know.
17:06:35 Pitched battles, if you will, you know, on the on the linguistic front.
17:06:40 At that time. because language is at the center of any political you know division and I just I just couldn't help feeling that my genuine love for the city love for the bilingual culture as of as a
17:07:00 phenomenon. you know was not it wasn't exclusive to me. It was it was felt by, you know, most of everyone I knew who wanted to come out and and and you know, participate in a creative manner.
17:07:15 So it was just a natural to to include as much, you know, from both sides of the fence as possible.
17:07:21 We do have this one other clip, though i'm not sure if you were there for this but if this might be thing that drew Duncan was therefore but it's just one of those things that I think is
17:07:33 so such a rich clip, just because it kind of shows how people are kind of fucking around like this is also a hangout, and there there's Ian.
17:07:46 And then this
17:07:59 Oh, God loving I looked just yeah the cargo shorts puppy baking up over there that's actually great to know because the cargo shorts obliterated the the the personality of the scott
17:08:23 and then you can see the the doorway so great.
17:08:33 Yeah, the whole venue was so open to the to the city, you know, like those big sliding windows right behind where you know, we we had a stage.
17:08:40 It was just classic, I mean I can remember several occasions when I had to interact with $100.
17:08:47 That weren't altogether on board with what we were doing we're, you know, really you know, doing their best to distract or obstruct it.
17:08:57 And it was just so fun It was a little bit unnerving, you know, at first, but when i'd reflect on it at the end of the night I'd just go Jesus I hope he got all that that was great they're almost
17:09:13 you know, like punch-ups outside that window a couple of months.
17:09:18 It was just crazy, you know, like people, you know, mental health issues people who just had too much to drink people who were just bound and determined to get their little piece of the line like what they saw, as you know, like a celebrity moment Yeah, it really
17:09:32 it really is like, you know. I I guess part of what our job is is.
17:09:36 We. we try and put these pieces of you know just what was daily life for people together, and some kind of grand narrative which always feels so strange.
17:09:45 Or we analyze that, but one of those things that feels like without making it seem too analytical.
17:09:50 But just fun is that quality of like you know this this series that feels so diverse and unique for the time, and still like for us, really stands out as something different from what even what we're used to is frequent posture.
17:10:04 Go where it's like There is also this such a funny quality in how the city really like penetrates the actual Space Act.
17:10:13 The background is literally the city there's stages the background is little. the city passing by cars people by people There's a dog that looks in in the middle of 1 1 one which is I think is a dog you can only see the
17:10:27 year. it could be a cat, I guess, and because it's a little bit below ground, right?
17:10:37 Yeah, that was that such an interesting kind of like aspect.
17:10:40 And yeah. So when you see lynn come in with the chain saw, it really is like, Well, those moments again where the city is penetrating into the space like that overlap.
17:10:56 Yeah, I mean that was that was pretty stagedy but I get what you're saying, and i'm sure there were at least a few people in the audience that were like and the piece is brilliant it's one of my favorite
17:11:04 pieces i've I've heard in the so far it's fantastic like I want to.
17:11:08 I was we should interview lynn I like I just i'm so grateful i'm i'm looking toward you guys in case there's anything else you want to ask but maybe i'll just start off to
17:11:20 say, before we get there. i'm so so grateful for this time today, Lee, this was really it's been it's been so great to hear to hear this series flushed out and it's a real
17:11:33 real joy of ours to be working on it and exploring Jason. And yeah, this is just so phenomenal Thank you for this this treasure trove of yeah, i'll just echo your words real quick and then you also say
17:11:50 that we will. Of course we will save this video or from the recording from today, and the transcript, and we'll put all together with the recordings we already have, and share of a multiple line drive with you.
17:12:01 These are. These are fairly huge recordings. We will share the compressed form with you. Hiv. will be like about 8 GB, because these these are just small files.
17:12:10 Hp: just like 8 GB so.
17:12:11 But you it works well, even playing them online from the Concorde server.
17:12:16 But we try to figure out because a little bit tricky to to share the Concord is stuff,
17:12:22 Outside, but we'll figure that out and next. yeah we might I think what we might end up doing is putting them on a key and mail in them that will work as well But we include the recording from today, and a
17:12:33 transcriptive. Whatever the digit itself, the automatic generated transfer that is probably screwing up my accent right now.
17:12:40 But so just so you can can see. and any other business that we forgot Jason.
17:12:46 They were the about follow ups that that no I mean yeah like just to echo Everyone's thanks for your time and generosity, Lee.
17:12:53 It's been really great and and we will follow up I mean they all have a lot of very specific questions about particular videos like because you'll be able to identify people and stuff, and that's extremely useful.
17:13:04 Because we try to. We have we have contributor, and you know, and role categories in our metadata, and we'd like to tag as many people as possible, so that they are identified and get credit for that for that
17:13:16 and so yeah, we'll have faces. Perhaps so.
17:13:34 Then maybe yeah, it's been a pleasure i'd love to do it again.
17:13:39 And you know, fill in as many blanks as I can, for you know, whatever whatever ultimate posterity.
17:13:51 Yeah, and we'll keep you involved, we will be interviewing other people from the series 2, and then at a certain point once we've completed processing the collection and we'll have to work on permission so think about the approach we want to
17:14:03 take to permissions, even if you have the legal right yourself. like to show them because you are the recordest, or you have the you know we we usually like to reach out and and consent from as many people as possible and then also
17:14:17 have a take down notice if we are going to make them accessible.
17:14:21 So if anyone sees that they're up there and don't want to be up there, they'll let us know, and we can take it that's really the only way you can go about these things right.
17:14:29 There's so many years have gone by Some people you know more touchy about their image than others.
17:14:35 So you have my blessings, you know, to to you know.
17:14:38 Get it out there as far and wide as possible, because I do feel like it was a significant event.
17:14:43 It is something i've reflected on with great pleasure and and pride, even over the years.
17:14:49 So i've never done anything similar since so the fact that you guys got got it all down.
17:14:56 It's all preserved i'm sorry great yeah yeah exactly we got it.
17:15:00 And yeah, So when you, when you have a chance, send back that the consent form And like, basically just to let you know the things we would end up doing with the videos like ideally we like to make these accessible for use in
17:15:14 research and teaching as widely as possible, like, you say, but we also have a podcast series.
17:15:20 And so if there are students, or if you know Faith, and Carlos want to work on a podcast, about the series, and use some of the audio, that's a possibility as well, or use some of the audio from this interview you
17:15:31 talking about the series like that. that's pretty much like the kind of thing with it.
17:15:37 Oh, yes, exactly I mean we we haven't spoken to too much about this without because we don't want Jason to be like there's so much to do before.
17:15:46 That, but we were already like. So what about enough? said Reunion.
17:15:52 So I said like once the process is done like what we usually like to do, an event so like when we finished processing Ian's words and music collection like at least up to 2,000, and 19 we had a kind
17:16:03 of launch event, and we invited, you know, 3 like I guess we had, like Tan Evanson and Cat Kid and Sam Shalabi, you know, like, perform at it like.
17:16:14 So we had, like a mini performance, and then also like an unveiling, in a sense of the vernage of the site that show the materials, you know.
17:16:21 So we'll aim towards doing something like that and hopefully bringing you in for that, you know, to to be there for that, so that'll probably be in the spring, or something like that you know would be fun
17:16:33 these things, you know all this time later, it it It's A.
17:16:38 It's a great great to pleasure and you know like Yeah, I I mean I used to edit a a little magazine and we have a final issue that never made it to this stand and it's complete.
17:16:52 You know, cover the government. Well, maybe that's that's what we're gonna launch at the at this I have some copies of Ponto affinity yeah Well, the yeah, the last one would have been called pond.
17:17:06 With other 2 infinity, and it had you know great stuff in it.
17:17:10 I can't. remember if if I know cat kid, her her maybe first and last ever you know, fiction you know she's written a novel, and I was all about I thought it was great, actually, she read from it and and enough.
17:17:25 said, and she just decided, Oh, oh, this is no good, and I go.
17:17:29 Are you kidding did publish a novel actually in the end day? Yeah. it wasn't the one i'm talking about the leading God I think she called it yeah, she published one that's sort of about noah's
17:17:47 ark actually. yeah, let me think about the in sediment the same thing, I mean, do I cannot find any way.
17:18:09 I's kind of makes makes the record is unique and Then i'm thinking also, as you think, Jason, and the about permissions I mean, think about There are some labels out there that might help us think about do we want to think about copyrights and the way this
17:18:17 will be open for research, like creative commons. could Ha that has different degrees of openness that you can think about.
17:18:19 And I don't know if that's the direction you're thinking Jason in terms of licensing and in permissions sometimes creative commons has its pluses and minuses.
17:18:25 But we'll talk about right stuff yeah another time once we get everything processed that's when we'll launch the permissions emails and contacts and stuff like that.
17:18:35 Very cool. Yeah. But thanks again, Lee, for all your time.
17:18:37 This is a long interview. So thanks for you time I I told the wife.
17:18:43 It'll probably only be an hour you know stuff you know we carved this 3 to 5 out, but you know it'll probably be more.
17:18:49 I could talk about this stuff forever, we are all poets. We all points.
17:18:54 We don't have no sense of time, we're considering this just part one, right. So we'll we'll get back to you to be continued you guys very good care and Jason before you sign up sign off a
17:19:12 recordings savings and those yeah, i'm gonna save the Transcript now. and i'll save everything Yeah.
17:19:25 Jason, the release form. Can I? Can I scan that and send it to you digitally, or would you rather Yeah, Either way is fine for sure.
17:19:29 Yeah, enough. Yeah, you you can't sign it digitally on the one I sent you.
17:19:33 It's not Oh, sorry about that. I I think I saved it wrong then, because you should if you've got a way of sending me something i'll try to figure it out. and Send you another one Well, that You can help to have acrobat here too.
17:19:44 Jason Alright, we'll talk to you soonly Thanks.
Notes:
Event recording starts at 00:00:00:00 of Asset.
NOTES
Type:
Cataloguer
Note:
Carlos A. Pittella
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