[{"id":"9279","cataloger_name":["Ella,Hooper"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S2E3, Sounds of Trance Formation: An Interview with Penn Kemp, 7 December 2020, Beauchesne and Kemp"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/sounds-of-trance-formation-an-interview-with-penn-kemp/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 2"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Nick Beauchesne","Penn Kemp"],"creator_names_search":["Nick Beauchesne","Penn Kemp"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Nick Beauchesne\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/43083879\",\"name\":\"Penn Kemp\",\"dates\":\"1944-\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2020],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/bbda2b6f-992a-45a6-bbee-f3074a8ccfd2/audio/919f9dbb-30d9-4851-ae29-ef6b52f23820/default_tc.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"default_tc.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:54:29\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"52,299,694 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"default_tc\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/sounds-of-trance-formation-an-interview-with-penn-kemp/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2020-12-07\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta Humanities Centre\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.5269794\",\"longitude\":\"-113.51915593663469\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta Humanities Centre"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"Print References:\\n\\nPenn Kemp’s Pandemic Poems originally published in: Belanger, Joe. “It’s time to embrace London’s poet laureate, Penn Kemp, and all artists.” London Free Press. 11 Apr. 2020. https://lfpress.com/opinion/columnists/belanger-its-time-to-embrace-londons-poet-laureate-penn-kemp-and-all-artists. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. “PENN KEMP – Home.” Weebly. http://pennkemp.weebly.com/. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. “Penn Kemp: Penn, poet/playwright/performer.” WordPress. https://pennkemp.wordpress.com/. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\\n\\nKemp, Penn, and Bill Gilliam. From the Lunar Plexus. Pendas Productions, 2001.\\n\\nKemp, Penn, and Bill Gilliam. “Night Orchestra.” Barbaric Cultural Practice, Quatrro Books, 2017.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. Trance Form. Soft Press and Pendas Productions (reprint), 2006.\\n\\nRecordings:\\n\\nKemp, Penn. “[Night Orchestra] Barbaric Cultural Practice.”  Soundcloud, https://soundcloud.com/penn-kemp/sets/barbaric-cultural-practice. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. “Penn Kemp – Trance Form, Live at U of A, February 18, 1977 (1).” Soundcloud, https://soundcloud.com/penn-kemp/penn-kemp-trance-form-live-at-u-of-a-february-18-1977-1. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. Trance Dance Form, Pendas Productions, 2006.\\n\\nKemp, Penn. “When the Heart Parts – Sound Opera.”  Soundcloud, https://soundcloud.com/penn-kemp/when-the-heart-parts. Accessed 17 Nov. 2020.\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549478178816,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.966Z","contents":["For Penn Kemp, poetry is magic made manifest. While her subjects are varied, and her interests and approaches have evolved over the years, Kemp has always understood the power of spoken word to evoke emotion, shift consciousness, and shape the world. Drawing on a syncretic blend of spiritual philosophy informed by Buddhist, Hindu, and Celtic wisdom traditions, Kemp’s work is imminent and transcendent, embodied and cerebral. The words on the page produce certain effects, while the voices in the air produce others altogether. How do these effects complement and contradict one another? How does literary sound produce bodily effects and altered states of consciousness? Where will the trance take us, as listeners?\n\nThrough conversation with poet Penn Kemp and SpokenWeb Researcher Nick Beauchesne, this episode invites us to explore these questions by tracing the threads of magical practice from Kemp’s early career to the present day. A clip from her performance of Trance Form at the University of Alberta (1977) is brought into conversation with more recent material from When the Heart Parts (2007) and Barbaric Cultural Practice (2017). The episode concludes with a live reading from Kemp’s brand-new Pandemic Poems (2020). \n\n00:03\tIntro Music:\t[Instrumental Overlapped With Feminine Voice] Can you hear me? I don’t know how much projection to do.\n \n\n00:18\tHannah McGregor:\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will be here if we listen to the archive? Welcome to the SpokenWeb Podcast: Stories about how literature sounds. [Music Fades] My name is Hannah McGregor, and each month I’ll be bringing you different stories of Canadian literary history, and our contemporary responses to it, created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada. How often do you think of your own voice as sonic art? What happens when you speak poetry aloud? What effects can voices in the air produce? For sound poet Penn Kemp, poetry is something more than the written word — words must be lifted off the page into the air and sculpted in sound. Her voice is her poetic instrument and sound becomes a verb — the transporting and trance-forming act of “sounding”. In this episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast, Penn weaves us through her creative practice with SpokenWeb researcher Nick Beauchesne. Exploring the magical effects of literary sound to transport us, transform us and entrance us, Penn and Nick take us on a journey through Penn’s illustrious decades-long career discussing archival performances of Tranceform (1977), When the Heart Parts (2007), and Barbaric Cultural Practice (2017), plus two brand new poems from Penn Kemp shared in this episode. Penn Kemp has published 30 books of poetry and drama, and had six plays, 10 CDs, and several award-winning video poems produced. A former poet Laureate of London, Ontario, and League of Canadian Poets Spoken Word Artist of the Year, Penn has been giving creativity workshops, teaching, and performing her poetry since 1966. Here is Nick Beauchesne with honored guest Penn Kemp in episode three of The SpokenWeb Podcast: Stories of Trance Formation. [Theme Music]\n \n\n02:29\tNick Beauchesne:\tGood day, audio lovers. Welcome to a very special episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast. My name is Nick Beauchesne, PhD candidate at the University of Alberta department of English and Film studies and a research assistant on the SpokenWeb Edmonton team. Today we’ll have an interview with a very distinguished Canadian sound poet in Penn Kemp. For Penn Kemp poetry is magic made manifest. While her subjects are varied and her interests and approaches have evolved over the years, Kemp has always understood the power of spoken word to evoke emotion, shift consciousness, and shape the world. Drawing on a syncretic blend of spiritual philosophy, informed by Buddhist, Hindu, and Celtic wisdom traditions, Kemp’s work is imminent and transcendent, embodied and cerebral. The words on the page produce certain effects while the voices in the air produce others altogether. How do these effects complement and contradict one another? How does literary sound produce bodily effects and altered states of consciousness? Where will the trance take us as listeners? Thank you very much for joining us, Penn. How are you today?\n \n\n03:45\tPenn Kemp:\tIt’s a pleasure to be here. I’m well and happy to join you.\n \n\n03:49\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, I’m broadcasting here from Kamloops, British Columbia, and here you are in London, Ontario coming together over Zoom in these very strange pandemic times.\n \n\n04:00\tPenn Kemp:\tIt’s true. It’s a lovely September day here full of long light approaching Equinox, a balance time.\n \n\n04:08\tNick Beauchesne:\tThe world has seemed so out of balance in many ways. So perhaps we can look forward to that as some sort of omen.\n \n\n04:15\tPenn Kemp:\tIt’s the seasonal transition from summer to fall. And the Celtic new year is coming up.\n \n\n04:23\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, we’ll get into these topics as we go, because a lot of what drew me to your work was your involvement with the mystical, the magical to some extent the alchemical — although it seems you’ve moved away from that in recent years — but you still have that very strong, magical thread that works through all your work and the way that you use sound as a tool for change and for expanding consciousness. Your website lists you as a performance poet, activist and playwright. And you have a reputation as one of Canada’s foremost sound poets. What does that category of “sound poet” mean to you?\n \n\n05:00\tPenn Kemp:\tIt means that I can do anything I like in performing a piece and how it wants to lift off the page.\n \n\n05:11\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, what do you mean by “lift off the page”?\n \n\n05:14\tPenn Kemp:\tInto sound, into performance. So, basically, I separate the written word into various categories and if the sound is predominant in the poem, in the original poem, then I lift it into a chant or various ways of expressing it beyond English language.\n \n\n05:46\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, is it that ability to, to get beyond language that, do you find that that’s what distinguishes your sound poetry from, from other types of poetry —which all do have a component of sound built into it —but how and why do you emphasize sound? What is it about sound that so draws you?\n \n\n06:03\tPenn Kemp:\tSound is both the first and the last sense. [Low chant begins, steadily increasing in volume] Hearing, as we know in the dead, in the dying, is the last sense to disappear. And it’s the sound that we —it’s sound that we first hear in our mother’s womb. McLuhan once said something that the Catholic religion lost its sense of mystery when they moved from the Latin in resounding through the cathedral, through the natural sounds of the cathedral. And when that was replaced by a microphone, it lost the resonance. It lost being inside the cavity of the mother’s womb, where sound is transmitted through the permeable membrane of the stomach. [Low chant ends] And so, I really believe that sound is transporting. It takes you back to primeval experience to first— before —it’s the closest we get to a kind of synesthesia where before sound before, excuse me, the senses are divided into five or 5,000. I think sound is the basic basis of all that.\n \n\n07:38\tNick Beauchesne:\tThat’s such a fascinating connection there between the mother’s womb and the womb of the cathedral space. Before we get into looking at some specific pieces of your work, I did want to kind of ask about that role of place. And it seems like you naturally tied into that in terms of, you know, since sound is so important for you, what are some of the coolest places you’ve been and hearing your voice in a raw environment and the different ways that that sound kind of affects it?\n \n\n08:06\tPenn Kemp:\tYes, I was —as I was talking about the cathedral, I remember performing in the ’80s at the cathedral of St. John the Divine along with a hundred conches that were led by Charlie Morrow. And that was a very interesting way of the voice resonating with the cathedral. And I’ve also done a lot of sounding in the center of standing stones in Scotland and Exmoor. And at the temple of Asclepius in Greece, you stand at the center in the hollow of that temple and the sound reverberates. You can whisper and the sound reaches the outer limits of the amphitheater. But the most amazing place to sound was being in the third pyramids at Giza. I was sat there for a night in absolute darkness, so dark that my mind started to create visual images and oral images. [low chanting begins] And I spent the night sounding. But there’s just another story. I was also invited to lie down in the sarcophagus at the King’s chamber at Giza — first in Cheops’ pyramid. And I had a very expensive Sony recorder at the time, and I was recording myself chanting in that sarcophagus. And when I came out, the recorder had blown a gasket. All the batteries had exploded with the energy. [Sound, ends]\n \n\n09:57\tNick Beauchesne:\tOoooooh.\n \n\n10:01\tPenn Kemp:\tIt was a very expensive lesson in power.\n \n\n10:05\tNick Beauchesne:\tWhat an amazing location to be able to experiment with sound. And then it’s such a strange phenomenon to have your piece of technology just disintegrate like that. Perhaps that sound was too sacred for this world, Penn.\n \n\n10:21\tPenn Kemp:\tI think so. Well, it is very interesting to have a kind of — my way of perceiving the world is, is very Celtic, very old, ancient, and yet to work with technology in a way that acknowledges its power is, has been a very interesting journey for me.\n \n\n10:43\tNick Beauchesne:\tThis podcast will proceed with basically a conversation built around four clips that I selected. I enjoy these clips because they give the listener a broad selection of material from across your lengthy career, beginning with an excerpt from “Bone Poems” which was published in Trance Form. And that recording took place in 1977. I also have clips from When the Heart Parts, two clips from the year 2007, and then the final clip we’ll be playing is from Night Orchestra in 2017. So, it’s something quite recent. And once our conversation around these pieces of sound has been completed, we’ll conclude the podcast with a special reading live by Penn Kemp from two new poems from your collection of pandemic poems. So, looking forward to getting to that material. The first excerpt I’ll play is from “Bone Poems” which is part of Trance Form. [Ambient Music starts] This clip was recorded at the U of A, from the department of English and Film Studies on February 18th, 1977. And this was how I was first exposed to your work, being a research assistant. It was my job to do a close listening of all this raw material and to then try to identify poem titles, collect timestamps, and all that. And so, over the course of listening to maybe 50 of these tapes from the EFS collection at U of A, I heard all sorts of different clips, and I’m always listening for components featuring mysticism, the supernatural, magic as poetic themes. And I identified that immediately in your work. And it’s something we’ve kind of talked about in our kind of private conversations. So, after kind of hearing this and then doing a listening practice back in June, where you joined as our guest, we put together this podcast where I wanted to pursue that strand of sound as a form of magical practice, as well as poetic practice. I’m going to play this clip. It’s about six minutes long. It’ll kind of form the — a good backbone (poem) of the rest of the interview. So, we’ll just listen to this clip and we’ll return with some questions. [Ambient Music ends.]\n \n\n12:59\tAudio Recording,\nBone Poems, 1977:\tAhhhhhhhhh. Oracle. The last section we can do together. This —my voice is running out and I’m sure you’ve got [Cough] a cough. It’s “Bone Poems.” It’s like getting down to the — it’s the last bone we wear that covers our essential emptiness. All you have to do is say, chant: “bone poems.” For those of you with books, you can follow the “bone poem” line along on page. For those of you who don’t have books, you can say “bonepoembonepoembonepoem.” And we’ll start at that. And then I’ll read the the “Bone Poems” supposedly over top of your loud “bonepoembonepoem.” You’re the bass section. Can I hear you please? Bonepoembonepoem…. [Audience chanting] If you want to get into varieties, you can. There’s quite a few. [Cough] Bonepoembonepoem. [Water pouring] You’ve died out. You have to keep it going for the next 10 pages. [Audience laughs] All right. Take a deep breath and then go. [Inhale] Hmmmmmmmm. [Audience chanting begins]\nSkin. A breeze. Hmmmmmmm. Green. Saw. Blue.\nWords. Breathe. Shed their skin. Skin to bone.\nOne bone under. Sun shine, some sun, some,\nsome sunshine, some shine. Hmmmmmmm.\nHmmmmmmm. Sa-sa-sa-hum-sa.\n\nOne bone sunshine shed skin. One bone over,\none bone under. Sun shine. Over under, over under,\nover under. Some. Cloud. Bone be nimble. Bone be\nquick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. Bone\nbe quick. Bone be quick. Bone be quick. Bone be\nover, under, over, under, over under. Bone be nimble,\nbone be quick. Do. These. Bones. Live? Bone be quick,\nbone be quick. Jump over. Quick dry, quick dry, quick\ndry quick, these be quick, bone be quick, bone be quick,\nquick, quick, quick, quick. Bone be nimble, bone be quick.\n\n[Audience chanting ending]. Music to my ears! [Audience: “ it’s hard work!”]\n\n16:39\tAudio Recording,\nBone Poems, 1977:\tAnybody want a glass of water? [Audience chanting returns]\nSweet marrow sweet morrow, all fleshes as grasses as\ngrasses as whistling down wind, is whistling down wind.\nBare. Root. White. Grow. Tomorrow, tomorrow. Bare. Rock.\nBone. Root. Of fleshes as grass is as grass grows over, grows\nunder. These. Those. These. Bare. Bone. Grope. White. Flesh\nis as grass is. Sweet morrow, sweet marrow. Cell in skull, skull\nin cell. Desert father’s memento mori. Bone shards endure\nwhen soft flesh withers. Slower bone retains our image. As\nby jaw or femur, they determined what we were. What we\nbecome. Our final trance formation. Slow. Bone. Soft flesh.\nTo marrow, tomorrow. Conjure our story. Become the thing\nwe divine.\n\nCome on, don’t get tired! I’ve been reading for an hour. You can’t be tired!\n\nFrame us erect. Base, bed, rock, mountain, tree. Axis\nof our bloodline, pole on which was strung and hung\nour nine-day lives. Oh spine, oh sacred virtue spreads\nher branches as our limbs. Her white, our white. Play us,\nwe are your instrument. Tibia, flute, femur, during, enduring.\n\n[string of high pitched sounds]\n\nHold the femur by its polished leather knuckle. Clang! Clang-inggggggg. Dangling. [Audience chanting ending]\n\n19:16\tNick Beauchesne:\tWow. That was quite something there. Kind of a blast from the past for you, Penn.\n \n\n19:22\tPenn Kemp:\tThat’s for sure. It’s interesting how I have continued to use certain techniques or habits of speech or habits of sounding like the rising ‘ing’. I’ve done a lot of that, of playing with the varieties of sound that can be produced.\n \n\n19:46\tNick Beauchesne:\tThat’s one of the things that really drew me to your work is there’s not a lot of singing in the EFS collection of the SpokenWeb tapes. So that was one of the, well, it was certainly the first, occasion of singing I heard in the collection, although there is another one or there’s another few of them out there. But not something that I’ve heard a lot of in our collection, anyways. So, it’s something that immediately got my attention, you know, being a vocalist and performance artist myself. I just wanted to ask about just that that pun of transform, you know, not with the Tran “N S” but with the, the “C E” of a kind of pond on forming a trance. And, you know, we can hear all sorts of, you can hear the, you know, the crowd gasping for air and, and laughing. And just also the way that the chanting is kind of known to change the brain state, you know, to like a delta or gamma brain state. So just the way that, that sound and chanting, not only like the sound itself, but also through like the breath, the breathwork, as well as a kind of tool of consciousness transformation. So, yeah, I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit about that in terms of how you use sound, both not only in your own, but also in the kind of audience participation or interaction forming that trance.\n \n\n21:06\tPenn Kemp:\tYeah. I believe that a poem must be transporting or at its best is transporting you to, not — certainly to an altered state, not a higher state, but a more spacious state of consciousness, where there are more possibilities. For example, we know that a baby [vocal drone begins] by the time it’s a year old has made every sound that it’s possible for a human being to make. But then by the age of 10, the child has — the child’s mouth has condensed, hardened. So that say the African —some click language can’t be, can’t be pronounced properly after a certain age. So, as a person fascinated by travel and languages, I was really interested in reaching beyond English, which is such a lovely mongrel language of many sounds, but into, you know, the more guttural sounds of German, for example, or how, how language is placed in the mouth. The way French has right at the top of the lips, right at the front. And that — or Russian is way back in the throat. That sort of thing really intrigued me. But it was basically listening to how my children at the —as infants developed language. And that’s where the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What that’s where the repetition came in of what in Buddhism or Hinduism we call “seed syllables.” And so, I was very interested as well in the power of seed syllables.\n \n\n22:56\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd there’s something powerful in the sense of the participation about sound poetry as well, because even you said, you know, “you can feel free to follow along if, and if you have no books, you can just go, bonepoebonepoembonepoem.”\n \n\n23:09\tPenn Kemp:\tYeah. Yes.\n \n\n23:09\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, it’s —so even people who don’t have the book or have never heard the poem before are able to participate in the village chant. So, so maybe we can call it.\n \n\n23:19\tPenn Kemp:\tSo, it becomes a participatory — all my sound poetry is participatory because then the experience is reenacted in the audience’s body as a collective. And that’s a joyous thing to get beyond the mind, the ego, into an experience that is so spacious.\n \n\n23:45\tNick Beauchesne:\tThey got into that in the “bone poem” section, but I wish a few of them were more adventurous to try some of those variations to, to hear more [trill sound].\n \n\n23:56\tPenn Kemp:\tIf I had a little more time to do a sound workshop with them.\n \n\n23:59\tNick Beauchesne:\tYes. Yes.\n \n\n23:59\tPenn Kemp:\tBut I think Doug Barbour had invited me to do that reading and he very kindly had the kids, students buy the books. So, they had these — the cover is of a bare-breasted, beautiful woman caught in a slant light in a very bright yellow cover. And here they were turning the pages. And at the end they corrected me and asked why I had changed the words in “Bone Poem” because they were following it exactly. And I —I was everything I do is ad lib and improvised and I wasn’t synchronized to what the page was saying. So, they felt it necessary to correct me.\n \n\n24:47\tNick Beauchesne:\tTo inform you that you read your own poem incorrectly.\n \n\n24:51\tPenn Kemp:\tWrong!\n \n\n24:54\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, if the students commented on where the poem is going and how it should be delivered…Penn, where do poems come from?\n \n\n25:03\tPenn Kemp:\tWell, they have many choices, but for me, the most powerful poems come from sound. But I also write a lot from a translation or a transliteration from visual fields. So, I dream vividly. And for example, after you had sent me the possibility of the podcast, I dreamt, I wrote a poem about that dream. And for me, the dream poems that are astonishing. I’ve got a whole collection called Dream Sequins, but they’re not as powerful as poems that lead me on the way through sound. So, I like poems to lead me, to take me to places rather than translating images that already exist. But let me read you this poem and it’s dedicated to you and you can make up your own mind.\n \n\n26:11\tPenn Kemp:\t\nLiteralizing the metaphor\n\nFor Nix Nihil\n\nThe host asks me to do a Zoom podcast, live in BC. I’m to record\n\non a cloud some metres above ground. The ladder up to the cloud\n\nseems precarious, even with gold underlining and heavenly chords.\n\n \n\nI’m afraid of falling through watery vapour, afraid of heights, afraid\n\nthat my voice will be tremulous. But once embarked upon the cloud,\n\nthe local Indigenous elder teaches me her healing heartbeat chant,\n\n“la-Doe, la-Doe”. She repeats the resounding phrase as I join in.\n\n \n\nSo the recording goes well. As BC is my last stop on tour, I have\n\nrun out of books to sell. A shame, since audiences here buy more\n\nthan anywhere else. My host gladly accepts my last copy as a gift.\n\n \n\nI return to home ground, empty of baggage and replete, complete,\n\nand ready to begin again, earthed.\n\n \n\n27:27\tPenn Kemp:\tNow, if I were developing that poem as a sound poem, I would be playing with “replete, complete, and ready to begin again. Earthed.” I would be playing with “I’m afraid of falling throooooooough.” Wherever the sound takes me. I would play further.\n \n\n27:47\tNick Beauchesne:\tI can also imagine some lah-dot, lah-dot, lah, dot persisting in the background. [Sound: Echo of “lah-dot”]\n \n\n27:52\tPenn Kemp:\tYeah! Well, for sure.\n \n\n27:54\tNick Beauchesne:\tWell I don’t know what else to say, but “aww shucks!”\n \n\n28:00\tPenn Kemp:\tOh, I expect the sound poem in return.\n \n\n28:02\tNick Beauchesne:\tWell, I’ll have to return the favor. No doubt. The next audio clip that I’d like to play is from a sound opera composed in 2007, called When the Heart Parts. Written in honor of your departing father, Jim Kemp.\n \n\n28:24\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tWhen the heart parts. Wh-wh-wh-wh-wh-wh-wha-wha-wha-why? why? why? [interspersed sounds] When. When. When. When. When. When the heart. When the heart. When the heart. Hearts, heart, heart, heart, heart, heart, parts, heart, parts, when the heart parts company, heart parts company company, our heart stops. Wh-wh-wh-wh-wh-wh- when the company, when the company, when the company parts, when the company parts. Art. Stops. Wh-wh-wh-wh-wh-when the company parts. When the company parts. When the company parts. When the company parts from the hearth. When the company parts from the hearth. Company from the hearth. The heart does not stop.\n \n\n29:29\tNick Beauchesne:\tThat was a clip from When the Heart Parts. That was the first minute of the sound opera. Quite a lot of layers, quite a lot of voices. What’s going on in that opening clip?\n \n\n29:42\tPenn Kemp:\tWell, I’m trying to recreate the experience of driving through snow with the knowledge that I was going to witness my father’s dying. And coming into the hospital, to the room, hearing all the different electronic sounds that were so pervasive, trying to keep him alive. And my voice is asking, “Why? Why? Why? Why?” You know. And so, I was trying to express the immensity of all the emotions through sound.\n \n\n30:30\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, there’s the sound – The sound of like the male voice is doing like a “lub-dub, lub-dub, lub-dub.” So, is that like the heart? The heart sounds there?\n \n\n30:37\tPenn Kemp:\tThat’s John Magyar the producer. And then, Ann Anglin, the actor is performing with me the various machine sounds and the sounds of “why” taking the form of my voice and my mother’s voice as we’re in the room.\n \n\n30:57\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd when you were saying, “company” —I just heard this now. And I don’t know if I, if this was intentional, but— were you attending to say Penny, like your, your name is a child?\n \n\n31:07\tPenn Kemp:\tYes. Yep.\n \n\n31:07\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, “come, Penny.” So, younger Penny in there as well. And, just like the, not with sound poetry in general, but with you as well, the importance of homonyms, homophones, and puns. So, you go from heart, you know, the organ to a hearth, like a space in a home, to art, like the art that comes from the heart and then parting and leaving. So, you have all these related sounds and these kinds of concepts, in a stream of consciousness, kind of interwoven in there —\n \n\n31:37\tPenn Kemp:\tI’m trying to get whatever works to get below the mental process into a deeper experience of the sound of language. And that comes again from a love of different languages.\n \n\n31:54\tNick Beauchesne:\tThe next clip takes place about 17 minutes into the opera, which is about 45 minutes or so long. It’s about two-and-a-half minutes long, but it really dramatizes that magical power of sound and that instinctive supra, or maybe sub rational power of sound that it goes beyond mind and into direct connection and intuition. So, it was a very powerful moment where you almost succeed in resurrecting your father, just for a moment too, to have this final kind of moment of connection. And so, it struck me as a very powerful moment in the poem, not only in the message and the words, but also the way that you self-consciously use sound to try to connect with your father while he’s deep in his kind of sleep state. Here’s a clip of the sonic resurrection.\n \n\n32:45\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tIn love and ceremony [Bells Ring] he crowns Mom with a Tibetan headdress. Magenta. Magnificent. Something significant has been accomplished. When Jamie and I come home from supper, Penny stays to read Jim the Tibetan Book of the Dead. He asked her to,  ages ago, if he were ever…When she gets home, we know something has happened. I never saw anyone look so worn out. She has worked so hard doing something.\nMy commitment to Dad is to read him the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The old words are meant to appease the fear and confusion of the dying.\n\nDo not let your attention wander. Keep to the clear light. Do not be distracted by other noises or pictures. They are all projections of your mind. Keep to what is happening here. Now, do not let your attention wander. Keep to the clear light. Do not be distracted. Traditionally, this reading is a guide in the process of dying. Do not be distracted. Keep to the clear light. The ear is the last sense to go. But who knows if Dad is listening? They are all projections of your mind. To conjure these peaceable realms, pure lands, at least calms and clears by own anguish. It is true. You are dying. It is true. You are dying. We are not pretending anything else. We are not pretending anything else. We are not holding anything back from you. We know you can hear. Your family is gathered around you. Know this is happening to you, now. To the light. Keep to the light. I whisper close into Dad’s left ear because I hope his right brain might be more receptive. Remembering a super learning technique to reach the deepest typological level of the mind. I call his name in three tones of voice. In between each phrase, I pause to the count of four. Jim Kemp [Tapping] Jim Kemp, Jim Kemp. And then my father flutters his eyes, startled. Squeezes my hand tight. He tries to focus, stares, and sees me.\n\n35:20\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, a very powerful moment there. And earlier in the clip you say, “in love and ceremony, he crowns my Mom with a Tibetan headdress.” And it seems significant in a kind of a meta level, in a sense, that through the poem you in turn are “through love and ceremony” crowning your own father. So, what about this poem is ceremonial to you, or how is this poem a ceremony?\n \n\n35:44\tPenn Kemp:\tWell, dying is such a time of transition. It’s the opposite of our two great transitions, birth and death. So, for me, yes, it’s important to honor these transitions through ritual. Dad and I were both received — took initiation as Buddhists in 1974. And so, we had studied Tibetan Buddhism and The Book of the Dead. And I had offered to read him The Book of the Dead when he was dying. So, this was a prepared act. My Mom was not part of that. She was much more of a rationalist. So, the dream was such a welcoming of her into the ceremony, which at the point of his dying, she embraced. The moment that I read his name and he came to, it was just before the doctors were to pull the plug, which would mean that he would die, of course. And because he was being kept alive by these instruments. And it meant that he then lingered on [Musical tones begin] for 10 more days. I don’t know whether that was a good thing or not because they’d brought him back six times with pounding his heart and all that. So, it was very painful, but nonetheless, he was there. But when I read to him and when I said his name —.\n \n\n37:31\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tJim Kemp.\t\n37:31\tPenn Kemp:\t— he responded by not only opening his eyes for the first time —.\n \n\n37:36\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tJim Kemp.\t\n37:36\tPenn Kemp:\t— but lifting his hand, his index finger —.\n \n\n37:40\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tJim Kemp.\t\n37:40\tPenn Kemp:\t— on his right hand as a gesture of —.\n \n\n37:45\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tJim Kemp.\t\n37:45\tPenn Kemp:\t— I don’t know, admonition or instruction. I never have been able to figure that one out. But extraordinarily powerful.\n \n\n37:56\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd from your subjective position there, it must have certainly seemed almost like a, like a spell to wake the sleeper for a final farewell.\n \n\n38:06\tPenn Kemp:\tAbsolutely.\n \n\n38:08\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo just to call attention to, again, the idea of sound as a kind of magical technique, but also as a scientific technique as well: “I whisper close into my Dad’s left ear because I hope his right brain might be more receptive, remembering a super learning technique to reach the deepest hypnagogic level of the mind I call his name —.\n \n\n38:27\tAudio Recording,\nWhen the Heart Parts:\tJim Kemp.\t\n38:27\tNick Beauchesne:\t— in three tones of voice.” So how old were you when that happened? And did you know that technique at the time? Have you used that since in your poetry?\n \n\n38:36\tPenn Kemp:\tI was 39. It was 1983. And super learning was, there was a book called Superlearning that I think the Russians had developed these —I haven’t heard much about it since, so — I think the technique was so powerful that I’ve never used it again. I didn’t dare.\n \n\n38:59\tNick Beauchesne:\tYeah. Sometimes those maybe when something like that happens that’s so powerful once is enough.\n \n\n39:08\tPenn Kemp:\tThank you, Nick, for noticing that moment, because it’s, for me, the pivotal moment of the piece. It was also produced by Theatre Passe Muraille as a play: What the Ear Hears Last. Appropriately enough. And you’re the first person that has, aside from the actors, noticed that absolutely pivotal moment of transition.\n \n\n39:38\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, we’ll go to another night, maybe not necessarily a night of the soul, but “Night Orchestra” is the next clip. So, this is from 2017 from your Barbaric Cultural Practices. Maybe, before I play it, can you explain what this clip is doing?\n \n\n39:57\tPenn Kemp:\tYes. Again, I’m in the midst of an aural field. This time, it’s a hot summer’s night in the Toronto beaches. And I have my windows open because I don’t have air conditioning, but the flat next door has very loud air conditioning. And so, I make a sound poem out of the experience.\n \n\n40:25\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd that experience was “Night Orchestra”.\n \n\n40:29\tAudio Recording,\nNight Orchestra:\tDeep, deep, deep, deep, deep, beep,\ndeep, deep, deep in, deep in, deep in.\nDeep in summer stillnessan electric hum of air conditioner in B flat.\nStill hum, still hum. Flat. Flat.\nMonotone entrains my body. Monotonous. [Low chant]\nproduced to cool my neighbors thrums the outside air,\nheats up our collective night. Sleepless in the beaches,\nI resist the single roar — sleepless, sleepless, sleepless —\nas Blake deplores single vision. And Newton’s sleep.The sound of the perpetual 20th century colonized our\nfuture with a dominant beep sales pitch for comfort. Con-\nvenience, reliance on the pliance. The pity is not that\nthe century has wound to a close, but that it’s whining\non and on. Mechanical multitudes self-replicate in chorus.Relentless fridge and clock. The only spell-breaker is a tape\nof Tibetan chant. [Tibetan chant] Deep harmonic overtones\nconjure a resonance, disturb the soundwaves. Somewhere\nbeyond the pervasive rattle, waves break on the shore.\nSpecies diversify. Night. Orchestra.\t\n42:56\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnother hypnotic sound collage there. The line that really jumped out to me is, “The only spell-breaker is the sound of a Tibetan chant”, which to me is almost ironic. The chanting in this track kind of constitutes part of the spell. I didn’t really comment on the past track as well, which also had a low, deep Tibetan-sounding chant. [Tibetan Chant Begins] So, it seems that the, this Tibetan chant and this influence persists through your work and probably in other poems as well, that I haven’t heard. [Tibetan Chant Ends] You mentioned you were initiated with your father. How else has this Tibetan chant kind of worked its way into your corpus?\n \n\n43:35\tPenn Kemp:\tWell, specifically in this piece, the “deep deep, deep, deep” was the actual sound or my replication of the sound of the air conditioner from the neighbors. And as a sort of dueling banjo, I set up my own CD of Tibetan chants. So, it was very specific and very actual in that I was trying to go — it’s like going onto an airplane and rising with the airplane, as it takes off. I convert the sound of the noise of the airplane into an ‘ommmmm’. It’s the same resonance. So, it converts the mechanical into the spiritual.\n \n\n44:23\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo, is that a technique you kind of frequently use in your everyday life whenever you hear obnoxious, ambient sounds? Is this an inner way in the inner monologue to overcode them with something of your own meaning to claim your head space, I guess?\n \n\n44:38\tPenn Kemp:\tThat’s right. For example, the frog, there’s a bull frog in my pond, and if he hears a certain truck, if he hears a certain sound of a large truck, he starts croaking, as in kind of setting up his territory, that this truck will not compete with. So, I think it’s very —a basic technique from the animal kingdom up.\n \n\n45:09\tNick Beauchesne:\tYeah. Laying your claim —.\n \n\n45:10\tPenn Kemp:\tYep.\n \n\n45:10\tNick Beauchesne:\tStaking your sonic territory.\n \n\n45:13\tPenn Kemp:\tYeah.\n \n\n45:17\tNick Beauchesne:\tThank you for commenting on some of these pieces that I selected. I did notice that sound as an instrument of will, and an instrument of change, an instrument of consciousness has persisted through your work for decades. So, I appreciate you joining me for this interview to comment on some of those strands and to help, you know, theorize about, you know, the bones of poetry and the transformational power of sound and how sound can form the trance and change the world. So, thank you very much. Before we end off, I understand you’ve written some new material to document your experience relating to this 2020 COVID-19 pandemic.\n \n\n46:02\tPenn Kemp:\tThat’s right.\n \n\n46:02\tNick Beauchesne:\tSo why don’t you —\n \n\n46:05\tPenn Kemp:\tI’ll read them for you.\n \n\n46:05\tNick Beauchesne:\t— why don’t you talk about that?\n \n\n46:06\tPenn Kemp:\tWell, first of all, I want to thank you Nick, for asking those very astute questions that helped me articulate the process because I usually work without conscious intent until I get to the editing phase. And you helped me articulate what I was doing at articulating the process. So, that’s really fun and useful. [Musical tone begins] These two pandemic poems were published in the Free Press or London Free Press, and the first one was contemplating what we’ll remember. It comes from the spring of this year. “What We’ll Remember.” I think the only thing I’d like to say about it is that — I was saying earlier that poems for me come from either sound or a vision, a visual inspiration, and these two poems come from the visual field. Necessarily they include sound.\n \n\n47:17\tPenn Kemp:\tWhat We’ll Remember\nHow first scylla sky shimmers\n\nagainst the tundra swan’s flight\n\nwest and north, north north west.\n\n \n\nHow many are leaving the planet and yet\n\nare with us, still and still forever.\n\n \n\nHow they linger,\n\nthe lost, the bewildered, the wild ones!\n\n \n\nThough tears come easily these days,\n\nwe too hover over the greening land\n\n \n\nas spring springs brighter than ever\n\nsince stacks are stilled and the pipe\n\nlines piping down.\n\n \n\nWhen the peace pipe is lit\n\nand sweetgrass replaces\n\nsmog— when the fog of pollution\n\nlifts and channels clear—\n\n \n\nEarth take a long breath\n\nand stretches over aeons to come\n\nand aeons past.\n\n48:29\tPenn Kemp:\tThe second poem came from a vision I had of, I call it, les revenants, those who have come before. Those spirits that seem to me to be brought back to a kind of half life from the influenza of 2000- excuse me – 1819. So this is a spell for them to return to their abode.\n \n\n49:05\tPenn Kemp:\tNo Reruns, No Returns\nfor les revenants\n\nThose who died once from influenza\n\na century ago, who now are pulled to\n\n \n\na hell realm of eternal return—are you\n\nrepeating, reliving the hex of time as if\n\n \n\ndoomed to replicate the old story you\n\nalready lived through? Once is enough.\n\n \n\nNo need to hover. You have suffered\n\nplenty. You’ve loved and lost all there\n\n \n\nis to lose. You have won. You’re one\n\nwith all that is. Retreat now to your own\n\n \n\nabode. Return home, spirits. You’re no\n\nlonger needed here. You are no longer.\n\n \n\nAlthough we honour you and thank\n\nyou and remember you each and all,\n\n \n\nall those who’ve been called back, called\n\nup from dimensions we can only guess at—\n\n \n\ncaught in the Great War and carried away\n\nor carried off in the aftermath of influenza—\n\n \n\nby this spell, we tell you to go back to\n\nyour own time, out of time. Just in time.\n\n \n\nMay you depart. We don’t know, how can\n\nwe tell? where your home is. It’s not here.\n\n \n\nKnow this virus is not yours. Know this\n\nwar is not yours. You are here in our era\n\n \n\nby error, by slippage, a rip. You’ve mis-\n\ntaken the signage, the spelling in wrong\n\n \n\nturns. Now return, by this charm, retreat.\n\nYou are dispelled, dismissed, dismantled,\n\n \n\nreleased to soar free from the trance of time.\n\nMay you travel well. May you fly free.\n\n51:50\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Finger Snaps] There’s my finger-snapping of appreciation.\n \n\n51:57\tPenn Kemp:\tWell I couldn’t hear it.\n \n\n51:58\tNick Beauchesne:\tThank you very much for sharing your new work with us here on the podcast.\n \n\n52:05\tPenn Kemp:\tYou’re the first to hear it.\n \n\n52:05\tNick Beauchesne:\tOh, I’m honored. Thank you very much, Penn, for joining us. Thanks to SpokenWeb for allowing me the opportunity to do this podcast. Thanks also to my friend and former bandmate, Adam Whitaker-Wilson for providing the tech support and the studio gear and space on my end here. Anyone seeking to learn more about Penn — she has a blog. Just google Penn Kemp at WordPress, and she also has a Weebly page, W-E-E-B-L-Y for further information as well.\n \n\n52:39\tNick Beauchesne:\tSpo-ken. Web.\t\n52:39\tPenn Kemp:\tSpoooooooo –\t\n52:39\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Ambient Noise Begins]. Thanks. You. Audience. For. Your. Time.\t\n52:39\tPenn Kemp:\tSpo-ken. Spo-ken.\t\n52:42\tNick Beauchesne:\tSpo-ken. Web. Spo-ken. Web. Web of life web.\t\n52:55\tPenn Kemp:\tWeb. Web.\t\n52:55\tNick Beauchesne:\tWeb of time.\t\n52:55\tNick Beauchesne:\tSpokennnn Webbbbb.\t\n52:55\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd then we’ll “fade out: music.”\n \n\n53:14\tHannah McGregor:\t[Theme Music] SpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from and created using Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. Our producers this month are SpokenWeb team members, Nick Beauchesne from the University of Alberta with guest collaborator and Canadian poet Penn Kemp. Our podcast project manager and supervising producer is Stacey Copeland. Assistant producer and outreach manager is Judee Burr. A special thanks to Adam Whitaker-Wilson, Douglas Barbour, Ann Anglin, Bill Gilliam, and John Magyar for their contributions to this episode. To find out more about SpokenWeb visit spokenweb.ca and subscribe to the SpokenWeb Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you may listen. If you love us, let us know. Rate us and leave a comment on Apple podcasts or say hi on our social media as @SpokenWebCanada. From all of us at SpokenWeb, be kind to yourself and one another out there. And we’ll see you back here next month for another episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast: stories about how literature sounds.\t\n"],"score":3.9476833},{"id":"9281","cataloger_name":["Ella,Hooper"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S2E4, Drum Codes [Part 1]: The Language of Talking Drums, 11 January 2021, Miya and Luyk"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/drum-codes-pt-1-the-language-of-talking-drums/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 2"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Chelsea Miya","Sean Luyk"],"creator_names_search":["Chelsea Miya","Sean Luyk"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/9162060349751401864\",\"name\":\"Chelsea Miya\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/3146217844209142580\",\"name\":\"Sean Luyk\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2021],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/0d03515b-c5f3-4c36-a680-33aa829dd3b1/audio/6facdb5e-1ccf-45ec-a136-c878d15c7429/default_tc.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"s2e4-drum-codes-pt-1-full.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:39:43\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"38,192,736 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"s2e4-drum-codes-pt-1-full\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/drum-codes-pt-1-the-language-of-talking-drums/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2021-01-11\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta Humanities Centre\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.5269794\",\"longitude\":\"-113.51915593663469\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta Humanities Centre"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"Print References:\\n\\nBabalọla, Adeboye. “Yoruba Literature.” Literatures in African Languages, edited by B. W. Andrzejewski, S. Pilaszewicz, and W. Tyloch, Cambridge University Press, 1985, 157–189.\\n\\nFinnegan, Ruth. “17. Drum Language and Literature”. Oral Literature in Africa. By Finnegan. Open Book Publishers, 2012, 467-484. Web. <http://books.openedition.org/obp/1206>.\\n\\nNgom, Fallou, Daivi Rodima-Taylor, and Mustapha Hashim Kurfi. “The social and commercial life of African Ajami” Africa at LSE Blog, 1 Oct. 2019, https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2019/10/01/social-commercial-african-ajami-culture/.\\n\\nOwomoyela, Oyekan. The Columbia guide to West African literature in English since 1945. New York: Columbia University Press, 2008.\\n\\nSonuga, Titilope. This is How We Disappear. Write Bloody North, 2019.\\n\\nStrong, Krystal. “The Rise and Suppression of #EndSARS.” Harpers Bazaar, 27 Oct. 2020, https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a34485605/what-is-endsars/.\\n\\nTúbọ̀sún, Kọ́lá. Edwardsville by Heart. Wisdom’s Bottom Press, 2019.\\n\\nVillepastour, Amanda. Ancient Text Messages of the Yorùbá Bàtá Drum: Cracking the Code. Farnham, England: Ashgate, 2010.\\n\\nRecordings:\\n\\nAdédòkun, Olálékan. [various tracks].\\n\\nSonuga, Titilope. “My Mother’s Music.” Mother Tongue, Titilope Sonuga, 2013.\\n\\nSonuga, Titilope. “This is How We Disappear – Titilope Sonuga.” YouTube, uploaded by Titilope Sonuga, 21 August 2017, https://youtu.be/JbLwsLYrjzw.\\n\\nTúbọ̀sún, Kọ́lá. “Ọláolúwa Òní reads “Being Yorùbá.” SoundCloud, 2019, https://soundcloud.com/kola-tubosun/olaoluwa-oni-reads-being-yoruba.\\n\\nSound Effects:\\n\\nBBC News. “End Sars protests: People ‘shot dead’ in Lagos, Nigeria – BBC News.” YouTube, 21 October 2020, https://youtu.be/Il5qL7YbawY.\\n\\nBloomberg Quicktake: Now. “Shots Fired in Lagos Amid #EndSARS Protests in Nigeria.” YouTube, 21 October, 2020, https://youtu.be/hu9FzU2TDvQ.\\n\\nThe Dinizulu Archives. “Asante Ivory Trumpets – Ancient Akan Music – Pt 1.” YouTube, 23 March 2009, https://youtu.be/P3XxEefvpr8.\\n\\nfelix.blume. “Dugout On The Niger River In Mali SOUND Effect.” Freesound, 20 January 2013, https://freesound.org/s/174933/.\\n\\nFilmOneNG. “Living in Bondage Trailer 1.” YouTube, 18 October, 2019, https://youtu.be/bQ9pUsXFqoA. \\n\\nLily Pope TV. “MAIN MARKET ONITSHA|| COME WITH ME.” YouTube, 9 July 2019, https://youtu.be/DJ3NyfV7tgs.\\n\\n“Nigerian Crowds – Lagos, native quarter with traffic & crowd atmosphere.” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07015037.\\n\\n“Outdoor Clock – Church clock striking, 6 o’clock. (All Saints Church).” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07002268.\\n\\nPasadena Conservatory of Music. “African Roots, African American Fruits: A Musical Journey (Concert Highlights).” Vimeo, 8 March, 2016, https://vimeo.com/158205356.\\n\\nPatrickibeh. “Nigerian Young girls playing ‘Hand-clap’ game.” Wikimedia Commons, 25 February 2019, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nigerian_Young_girls_playing_%27Hand-clap%27_game.webm.\\n\\nProtests.media. “Buhari Must Go Protest in Lagos, 17th of October 2020.” Vimeo, 27 October, 2020, https://vimeo.com/469395263.\\n\\nRueda, Manuel. “Oaxaca whistle language.” Vimeo, 2004, https://vimeo.com/77702616.\\n\\nMuir, Stephen. “City Street Winter Day – Toronto – Bay St And Cumberland St.” Dreaming Monkey Inc.“Wamba Indigenous Music – Repetitive tune using a two tone communication whistle(vocal).” Recorded by John Watkin. BBC Sound Effects, 31 March 1996, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=NHU05003080.\\n\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549485518848,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.966Z","contents":["For hundreds of years, the Yorùbá people of West African have used “talking drums” to send messages across great distances. West African languages are highly musical, full of rising and falling tones. The pitch of talking drums can be adjusted to mimic these tones, so drummers can “speak” to one another. The drummer encodes the language, converting it into drum patterns, and in the process, poeticizes it. \n\nThis two-part podcast series explores talking drums as an art, a technology, and an important tool for speaking truth to power. In part one, poets, musicians, linguists and educators share their experiences of this fascinating musical instrument and its role in the fight to preserve local West African languages. In part two, airing next season, we sit down with a master drummer and learn more about how drums function as information compression tools.\n\n00:18\tTheme music:\t[Instrumental Overlapped with High-Pitched Voice Begins] Can you hear me? I don’t know how much projection to do here.\n \n\n00:18\tHannah McGregor:\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive? Welcome to the SpokenWeb Podcast: stories about how literature sounds. My name is Hannah McGregor, and each month I’ll be bringing you different stories of Canadian literary history and our contemporary responses to it created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada. Here on the SpokenWeb Podcast, we have a fascination with language that goes beyond the novel or the codex and into the many texts and technologies that connect us through sound. This podcast itself is a way of connecting, of telling stories and building a community of literature lovers and sound fanatics across the country and around the globe. But there are many other sonic communication technologies beyond podcasts, radio, or even the humble telephone. And some are much older. For hundreds of years the Yorùbá people of West Africa have used “talking drums” to send messages and tell stories. The pitch of talking drums mimics the rising and falling tones of West African languages, allowing drummers to “speak”. The drummer encodes the language, converting it into drum patterns and in the process turns them into poetic and political expression. In this episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast produced by University of Alberta researchers, Chelsea Miya and Sean Luyk, we will hear from poets, musicians, linguists, and educators, as they reflect on the power and influence of this musical instrument, communication technology, and important symbol for West African cultures. The story of the talking drum connects to the story of written and spoken West African languages and the struggle to preserve them. This episode is part one in a two-part series about the talking drum. Here are Chelsea Miya and Sean Luyk with Drum Codes [Part One]: The Language of Talking Drums. [Feature Audio Opens with Talking Drum Music]\n \n\n02:29\tChelsea Miya:\tLong before text messages, West African communities used drums to send messages from village to village. I am Chelsea Miya.\n \n\n02:38\tSean Luyk:\tAnd I’m Sean Luyk.\n \n\n02:41\tChelsea Miya:\tIn this episode, we consider the talking drum in the context of the struggle to preserve West African languages, and as a way to speak truth to power and protest oppression.\n \n\n02:55\tWisdom Agorde:\t[Drumming] Drumming for us goes beyond entertainment.\n \n\n02:59\tSean Luyk:\tWisdom Agorde is co-director of the University of Alberta’s West African music ensemble. [Drumming ends]\n \n\n03:04\tWisdom Agorde:\tDrumming brings us together for festivals, storytelling, funerals, maybe dedications and weddings and all of that. But beyond that, the drama, the divine drama connects to the ancestral world, which is the spirit world. And they help our priests and priestesses to get into trance and get information from the spiritual world, which is then communicated back to the living. So the drum could be seen as the bridge between the living and the dead.\n \n\n03:43\tSean Luyk:\tIn West Africa, there is a strong overlap between music and language. African languages, like Yorùbá, are highly musical. The Yorùbá language has three tones:low, mid, and high. Solfege symbols, names for musical notes, are used to teach these tones. Do. Re. Mi. The straps on a talking drum can be adjusted to mimic these tones and communicate messages. [Begin Music: Drumming] Listen to master drummer, Peter, one of our featured guests in episode two in the series, demonstrate the tones on his drum. [End Music: Drumming].\n \n\n04:18\tPeter Olálékan Adédòkun:\tSo this drum has ability to mimic my voice. It can speak. It can say your name. If I want to say your name as Chelsea, Chelsea Miya, I can do that. [Drumming] Yes. So look. [Drumming].\n \n\n04:36\tSean Luyk:\tSpeech surrogates are instruments that mimic the human voice so that players can speak to one another. The talking drum is just one example. Some communities also have traditions of using flutes [Sound Effect: Flute], trumpets [Sound Effect: Trumpet] and whistles [Sound Effect: Whistles] to communicate.\n \n\n04:52\tWisdom Agorde:\tYou know, in those days we didn’t have factories and industries. We didn’t have many cars. So the air was not polluted that much. So the talking drum is going to, is able to travel several kilometers. So, if there is a problem at home, let’s say there is fire at home. If the king wants people to run back home, because there was a problem, he uses the talking drum to call all the people to come back. The talking drum also announces if there is a death in the community. Once you hear the tone of it and the language in it, you know exactly that an elderly person had passed away. And if you know the appellation of that person, you will understand immediately who died.\n \n\n05:48\tWisdom Agorde:\tWhen I was in Ghana, I was quite young when my grandfather died and they were playing the royal drums in front of the family house. Normally when a royal dies, the royal drums will come out and we’ll play to send off that person to the land of the ancestors. So, the funeral started on Friday. So that Friday afternoon, we were preparing to bring the body from the morgue. And I was passing by and they were playing the royal drums [Begin Music: Drumming] and I had no clue. It just a nice sounding drum to me. And I know the drums are being played to honour my grandfather. So one of the elders called me [End Music: Drumming] and asked me my name. [Begin Music: Singing] And like, “is that not your grandfather whose funeral we’re having?” I said, “yes.” And he said, “and you were passing and they called you and you didn’t respond!?” [End Music: Singing].\n \n\n06:55\tWisdom Agorde:\tAt that time I was in the university. I had no clue. City boy doesn’t understand nothing. Apparently they were calling the family name on the drum. Man, I’m supposed to acknowledge that, but because I didn’t understand it, I didn’t respond as I should. So I was just walking by. I had no clue.\n \n\n07:20\tSean Luyk:\tHow are you supposed to respond?\n \n\n07:22\tWisdom Agorde:\tMost often you raise your hand. There are times also when, if you can dance, you will respond to the call through dance.\n \n\n07:32\tSean Luyk:\tOne time, Wisdom happened to see across a funeral procession for an important local chief. [Audio Recording: Crowd Chatter and Noise] He remembers watching the royal drummers on their way to the palace and realizing that they were telling the story of the chief’s life.\n \n\n07:44\tWisdom Agorde:\tI was in front of the palace, that there was a huge funeral. The funeral lasted for more than a week. And every day of the week specific people from different parts of the country came to pay homage to the dead chief. And this particular day I was there, the chiefs arrived from another region and they were in a procession walking to the palace to go pay homage to the body of the dead chief that was lying in state. And whilst they were passing, I realized that when they reach the front of the royal drums, the language of the drum changes. And immediately the language changes the visiting chief or king responds through different kinds of dances. And it was so beautiful. I don’t know what the drums were telling them, but definitely be understood what the drum was saying, and the drummer knows exactly who was arriving and we’ll call that person in name. The royal drummer is also a historian. So the royal drummer wasn’t just calling them. He was also telling history. What that person has done, what their ancestors have done, and how they have survived through the years. I am very sure that the divine drama might have learnt all the drum language from all the visiting chiefs and kings in order to appropriately acknowledge them. Unfortunately we the younger generation don’t know many of those songs right now. And there is that fear that some of these things are lost because during that funeral I saw certain performances I’ve never seen before.\n \n\n10:01\tSean Luyk:\t[Music Begins: Instrumental Drumming] Different communities have their own unique talking drum traditions, their own speaking styles interwoven with sayings and proverbs that have been passed down through the generations. The richness of the talking drum is reflected in the incredible language diversity of West Africa as a whole.\n \n\n10:17\tTunde Adegbola:\tMy name is Tunde Adegbola. I’m a research scientist. [Music Ends: Instrumental Drumming] I work in human language technology with emphasis on speech technologies. Also looking at the implications of speech surrogacy, which is the use of devices other than the human speech apertures, such as drums, whistles, and such to communicate.\n \n\n10:46\tSean Luyk:\tCan you tell us a bit about the history of West Africa and what made it possible for so many different languages to coexist and thrive in the same region?\n \n\n10:54\tTunde Adegbola:\tClose to one third of the 7,000-odd languages in the world are spoken in Africa. And West Africa seems to be an area where a lot of these languages are spoken. Some investigators have recognized up to about 512 various languages spoken in Nigeria. My hunch is that the Niger River [Sound Effect: Water Flowing], which deposits into the Atlantic Ocean in the Niger Delta, is a natural attraction of various peoples in West Africa or in Africa to congregate around and expand out of the Niger Delta, thereby bringing probably various languages that now have to co-exist and walk together. [Sound Effect: Crowd Bustling].\n \n\n11:50\tSean Luyk:\tNigeria is one of the most multilingual countries in the world, but over half of its languages are in danger of disappearing. Tunde is the founder of Alt-i, the African Languages Technology Initiative. His organization is searching for technological solutions to the language crisis. As he explains, colonialism fundamentally transformed West African languages chiefly through the introduction of written forms of communication.\n \n\n12:22\tTunde Adegbola:\tMost, if not all, West African languages had strong European influence in their writing systems. In languages like Hausa, for example, which is probably the second-widest spoken language in Africa, had long histories of exposure to Arabic literature. So there is a tradition of writing Hausa in Arabic script, popularity referred to as the Adjami script. [Sound Effect: Writing].\n \n\n12:59\tSean Luyk:\tAjami is an Arabic script for writing African languages and is about 500 years old. So, although there is an assumption that African cultures are purely oral cultures, written Yorùbá has actually existed for quite some time. It is true, however, that Yorùbá literature only really started to take off in the mid 19th century with the arrival of missionaries. [Sound Effect: Church Bells].\n \n\n13:26\tTunde Adegbola:\tThe coming of Europeans, particularly European missionaries, who saw a great level of importance in developing a literate people, because they were bringing a religion of the book to a people that were either oral societies or as Walter Ong would put it, a society with a high “oral residue”. So there was this need to develop literacy.\n \n\n14:05\tSean Luyk:\tAnd so, Yorùbá writing was reinvented once more, this time using the Latin alphabet. But the characters weren’t the only difference. The Yorùbá vocabulary itself was transformed to accommodate new ideas.\n \n\n14:18\tTunde Adegbola:\tI know that effect on the language and other various West African languages, is the fact that Christianity came in with new ideas. Ideas that were not embedded in the culture. So there was a need to develop words for them. And that also had great effect on the languages. The Yorùbá language that I speak, for example, does not take much account of gender. In the language you wouldn’t have such gender pronouns like he and her, uncles and aunties, nieces and nephews. Apart from fathers and mothers, everybody else is pretty the same. But with the advent of Christianity words for a brother in the fellowship, words for sister in the fellowship, some ideas came and was like [Yorùbá phrase] and [Yorùbá phrase] came into the language.\n \n\n15:35\tSean Luyk:\tSo, on the one hand, the writing system, the Latin alphabet reinforced Christian colonial ideas. But, on the other hand with the advent of writing also came a new generation of Nigerian authors.\n \n\n15:56\tAudio Recording:\tStreet Scene, People Speaking]\n \n\n15:56\tSean Luyk:\tThese are sounds from Onitsha, port city on the Niger River. Today, Onitsha is most famous for being the home of Nigerian cinema, nicknamed Nollywood.\n \n\n16:07\tAudio Recording, Film Clip:\tIf we go down, we go down.\n \n\n16:11\tSean Luyk:\tBut it’s also the birthplace of Nigerian print culture.\n \n\n16:15\tTunde Adegbola:\tImmediately after the European missionaries developed literacy, there was great enthusiasm in writing and lots of Yorùbá people try to write. And many printing presses were established in Ìbàdàn, the capital of Yorùbáland. And you saw a lot of printing presses rising up in small shacks. It was like a Gutenberg revolution in Yorùbáland at that time. And these also permeated the whole country seeping into other areas producing what was known as the Onitsha market literature.\n \n\n17:02\tSean Luyk:\t[Begin Music: Instrumental] In the 1940s to 1960s, Onitsha was the home of the largest outdoor market in West Africa. Market stalls were packed with books and pamphlets all printed on hand presses. This was a period of intense creativity and of pride in one’s local culture. For the first time Nigerian authors were writing novels in Yorùbá and winning huge acclaim.\n \n\n17:24\tTunde Adegbola:\tBut somewhere along the line, [End Music: Instrumental] this excitement in writing in Yorùbá seems to be petering out, and less and less of Yorùbá literature is published these days. People tend to think, they see English as the language of administration, the language of officialdom, the language of education, the language of opportunity. And for that reason, people put lots and lots of efforts into getting their children to speak English, to the detriment of the Yorùbá language.\n \n\n18:07\tSean Luyk:\t[Begin Music: Singing] Speaking Yorùbá, instead of English came with consequences.\n \n\n18:11\tTunde Adegbola:\tI was punished throughout my young age for speaking Yorùbá in school. [End Music: Singing] My good fortune is that my parents were educators and they knew better. My mother taught in a teacher training college and students from the teacher training college would come for teaching practice in our school. My mother would come to supervise them and would speak Yorùbá to me when she met me along the path and the school. And everybody’s expressed surprise that Tunde’s mother who is the teacher of teachers is disobeying the law of not speaking Yorùbá. There was a time in Nigeria when institutions felt English is the way of development, English is the way of modernity, English is the way of opportunities. There was a time that there was a slogan in the educational system and the slogan was “fail in English, fail in all.” So if you took five papers, mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics, and did very well in all this, if you failed in English, then you had to repeat the whole class because you failed in English. And this type of retrogressive thinking continues to pervade the educational system.\n \n\n19:48\tChelsea Miya:\t[Begin Music: Drumming and Singing] Yorùbá and other West African languages are continually evolving. The diaspora has been particularly influential. [End Music: Drumming and Singing].\n \n\n19:57\tTitilope Sonuga:\tThere’s always been this balancing that I’ve done between the English language and Yorùbá and recognizing that Yorùbá was acceptable in some spaces. Whereas it wasn’t in others.\n \n\n20:08\tChelsea Miya:\tTitilope Sonuga is a spoken word poet and performer based in Edmonton, Alberta. As she explains, her approach to writing and performing poetry is informed by her Nigerian heritage and her interest in the politics of language.\n \n\n20:25\tTitilope Sonuga:\tI grew up in Lagos, Nigeria, in a household where we spoke predominantly English. Yorùbá, I would say, is a gift that my grandmother gave me. So my grandma was very particular about us speaking Yorùbá. And even though she spoke English, she always pretended like she couldn’t really understand what you were saying if you tried to speak English with her. So there was a way in which like Yorùbá was like the default language and my grandmother’s house. As a child, I regret to say, we were raised to kind of view our mother tongue, our native languages, as inferior to this other, this English language. Right. So there was a sense in which English was the official language that you spoke at school when you were trying to be proper and in certain spaces, the better your English was the more respected. So Yorùbá became relegated to the space of what you spoke at home behind closed doors or with family, but it was kind of an informal language.\n \n\n21:28\tTitilope Sonuga:\tIt took years for me to understand that as a kind of shaming [Audio Recording: Street Scene?] Then we moved to Canada, Yorùbá then became this bridge. It was the way in which we could communicate in public spaces without being understood by other people. It kind of became a refuge as well. So, I would say that my relationship to the language, this shuffling between English and mother tongue has been sort of the balance of my life. But as I’ve grown older, I’ve come to recognize what a gift it was that my grandmother gave me. And what a connection it is to my roots and to who I am. I don’t write or create arts in Yorùbá, but I definitely feel like there’s a sensibility of how the language works that follows me. You know, these proverbs and dual meanings and things like that, that I carry. Even in my writing in English, I think Yorùbá is as much a part of me as anything else. And so it kind of, it comes out in my work. Always.\n \n\n22:33\tAudio Recording, Titilope Songua, “My Mother’s Music”:\tMy mother sang when I was born, she welcomed me head first into melody. She chanted like a talking drum. She caught Godspell in gospel. And then she named me Titilope. An eternal love song to her creator.\n \n\n22:51\tTitilope Sonuga:\tI remember even as a kid, just being fascinated by the instrument and the way that it sounds. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched or listened to it being played. It sounds like a voice. Like that’s why it’s called the talking drum. Is that like, if you’re still and listen, there is a language that is happening there that is very similar to what it sounds like to tell a story, to speak out loud. I think to do it well, to do it beautifully is to connect to this ancient oral tradition that Nigeria is so rich with, that all of Africa really is so rich with. [Music Start: Instrumental] The proverbs, the prose, the sayings, the hidden messages, this drum kind of encompasses all of that. Music has been such a big and important part of my creating life. I don’t know a poem that I’ve written that wasn’t written to something playing in the background somewhere, or a song that I had heard that inspires something.\n \n\n23:58\tAudio Recording, Titilope Songua, “This is How We Disappear”:\tThis is how we disappear. We fall backwards into our mother’s mouths. Become them. Become the only stories we have ever been told. Stories about women who stay. Women who endure. Women who offer their bodies into the belly of the beast to protect their children. This is how we go missing. We tumble into… [Music End: Instrumental]\n \n\n24:26\tChelsea Miya:\tCan I ask about “This is How We Disappear”? So like a lot of your earlier work, I think it also has a really powerful, sonic or oral quality, but of a really different kind. How does sound or absence of sound factor in this work?\n \n\n24:43\tTitilope Sonuga:\tWell, that’s an interesting thing. I remember in an earlier edit of the collection, I had a line in there comparing the disappearance of the Chibok girls to like a tree falling in a forest. You know, if a girl disappears and nobody’s there to hear her, did she actually make a sound? The book is about disappearances. It’s about silences really, and silencing. But it is also about celebration and remaking ourselves, the ways that women do that, the world over. I would say when I started working on the manuscript itself, I was very heavily pregnant and had just had a baby. And a lot of those poems were written in the twilight hours. I remember listening to a lot of gospel and spiritual music. Somebody said recently to me about how the book feels like it has a lot of ghosts in it. And it definitely feels like a bit of a haunting. It’s interesting that you talk about silences and sound because there was a lot of both, there was these quiet moments in the world. There was me revisiting the ghost of these women who had disappeared the world over, but also there was this hum of this spiritual [Music Begins: Instrumental] sort of awakening that was happening for me as a new mother.\n \n\n26:13\tAudio Recording, Titilope Songua, “This is How We Disappear”:\tThese women who reinvented joy. Who snapped back our broken bones to the rhythm of a survival song, a song about the audacity of living and loving anyway. We became a whole new kind of creature. Something fearless and fierce. Something bold enough to call down even lightning and dare it to touch us. [Audience Cheering].\n \n\n26:36\tTitilope Sonuga:\tPerformance for me was never an option. It was just like, this is what I know. This is who I am. [Music Ends: Instrumental].,and not just performance to read the poems out loud, but performance that connects to a musicality that is grounded in the talking drum that is grounded in Yorùbá language, and Yorùbá songs, and Yorùbá names and naming. The first poets I knew were these people on the drums singing [unknown word] at weddings. Telling you of your entire lineage, the names and the names and the names of your father’s father, your mother’s mother. These people were my first experience of memorized poetry. They’re people who know, who at a glance can tell you who you are. And they know this stuff [Music Begins: Drumming] in their hearts and minds. They don’t need a page or a paper to tell them.\n \n\n27:40\tChelsea Miya:\tThe talking drum is in some ways inherently poetic. This is because of its unique grammar, which creates room for ambiguity. [Music Ends: Drumming].\n \n\n27:49\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún: :\tYorùbá is a tone language, which means that meaning can be derived from just a slight inflection of the vowels.\n \n\n27:58\tChelsea Miya:\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún is a linguist, poet, and cultural activist. [Audio Recording: Engine Revving] He recently worked with Google to create the Nigerian English version of Siri.\n \n\n28:07\tAudio Recording, Siri:\tNavigating to Hartfield.\n \n\n28:11\tChelsea Miya:\tBut before that, he was a language teacher. He won a Fulbright scholarship to attend grad school at Southern Illinois University in a small town called Edwardsville. While there, he taught Yorùbá to American students and wrote poetry about his experiences. This is a reading of his poem “Being Yorùbá”.\n \n\n28:33\tAudio Recording, Oláolúwa Òní, “Being Yorùba”:\tHow do you teach a state of being? You don’t. You teach instead tone. Do-Re-Mi. Like music on the tongue.\n \n\n28:43\tChelsea Miya:\tKọ́lá explains how the talking drum strips away everything except for the tones, which means that the messages sent by the drummers can be interpreted many different ways.\n \n\n28:54\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún:\tYorùbá is a tone language, which means that meaning can be derived from just a slight inflection of the vowel. And tone is realized basically on the pitch level, on the vowel. So when it would like “igba’, is different from “igba” is different from “igba” is different from “igba”. These are different words. You have got “an egg”, you have “200”, you have “time”, you have “Calabash”. All of those things spelled the same way: I-G-B-A. Except for the tone that you put on it when you speak. So it makes Yorùbá very interesting, especially for those who are trying to learn it for the first time. In English, when you say “go”, it’s still go when you say “go” or “go” or “go” the only difference is when it comes at the end of a question. But in Yorùbá, it’s not just the sentence itself that it changes. It changes the character of the word itself. When you’re playing and talking drum it’s about the same.If I say “igba” on the drum, I can make the same sound, “Re. Me.” I mean, Yorùbá tones — Do. Re. Me. is the same three level tones as you have in music. Which makes [Music Begins: Drumming and Singing] the language sound very musical when you speak it. But what is fascinating, really, especially what makes the language more amenable to poetry [Music Ends: Drumming and Singing] and literary expression, is the idea that you’ve got a talking drum, you can’t see the words that is being said. You are playing a drum and all you have is a tone. And the person listening to it has to figure out from just the tone, what kind of words you’re trying to say. If I say “uh-uh” with a drum, I could be saying “igba”, I could be saying “ohwa” I could be saying “ideh”, a number of different things. But when you put that then in a sentence, or in a song, or in tune, then you leave like so many different possibilities that can happen. And in traditional Yorùbá communities, this has either been a cause of conflict, it has caused wars, or a source of entertainment for those who understand it, consternation for those who don’t.\n \n\n31:11\tChelsea Miya:\tThat’s interesting. So the drummer could be praising someone or complimenting them or insulting them, I guess it will depend on the context.\n \n\n31:21\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún:\tIndeed. There is an example, actually, a famous example, in the 60s, I believe, when the radio Nigeria, the Nigerian Broadcasting Service started they were looking for a signature tune to play before the program starts in the morning. And it went like this, “dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-deh-dum”. And it meant, “this is the Nigerian Broadcasting Service.” But that was the first time an English expression was played with a drum. So the people who are listening to the show, in the radio every morning, many of them literate in the drum culture, couldn’t figure out what he was saying, because it was not a recognizable tune and pattern. So they decided to make up their own interpretations for it. Some people said, it’s saying [Yorùbá phrase], which means “when the Yorùbá dies, who is next in line.” Or something like [Yorùbá phrase] like “your child is little by little becoming criminal”. And there were several interpretations people just made up. Some of them pleasant, some of the funny, some of them just plain insulting. And it caused a lot of consternation among the people, especially people who were in charge of the radio, who were from a different culture of upper class elites who didn’t care about or know about the drum culture, or the colonialists who were just there to have a radio that people can use to communicate. So that’s how sometimes just a simple piece of expression can have different interpretations just because you’re not sensitive or familiar with how it’s used in society,\n \n\n32:56\tChelsea Miya:\tAs Tunde explains, historically the talking drum has also functioned as a powerful tool of political expression. Because of the ambiguity of the messages, the drummers could use their music to critique leadership and speak truth to power.\n \n\n33:12\tTunde Adegbola:\tThere are lots of narratives around the talking drum. There’s a particular saying, [Yorùbá phrase], “that it is only the drummer that can say for sure what he is using his powerful drum drumstick to see.” There are lots and lots and lots of accounts in history where talking drummers have saved whole communities from unfair leadership, wicked leadership, by naming and shaming negative acts in society to the extent that as such people have had to stop what they were doing, because they could not punish the drummer because they had this facility for plausible deniability. And yet everybody knew that the leadership was being blamed for misbehaving.\n \n\n34:12\tAudio Recording, BBC News:\tNigeria’s president has called for calm and understanding after protests against police brutality turned violent on Tuesday evening, with soldiers reportedly opening fire on demonstrators in the country’s biggest city, Lagos.\n \n\n34:27\tChelsea Miya:\tKọ́lá is well familiar with the role of art and poetry in exposing corruption and facilitating political change. He lives in Lagos, Nigeria, close to where the #EndSAR’s protest took place. [Sound Effect: Crowd Protesting and Chanting] For months, young Nigerians [Sound Effect: Gun Shots] have gathered by the thousands in these city streets to protest against the notoriously corrupt and brutal police force known as the Special Anti-Robbery Squad or SARS.\n \n\n34:58\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún:\tSince September and since, especially this #EndSARS movement, the disappointments and outrage I feel about how the government reacted to the crisis has spurred me in a new direction, and I’ve been writing a couple of forms about that. I feel my despair, my hope, my aspiration. There was one that I wrote in the midst of anger at looking at the flag of the Nigerian nation drenched in blood. It was one of the symbols of the 20th, the outcomes of 20th of October when soldiers went [inaudible]. Nonviolent protestors were gathered at night and opened fire. Somebody bled on the, on the national flag and national flag is green, white, green, otherwise. And the white part was filled with blood and many people have changed their Twitter profile pictures to that image. So I wrote a poem called a “Blood Spangled Banner.” ‘In the white of a flag, the bleeding soul of the moment wept blood near the gaping toll/ Ghosts of the nation’s past haunts in the cries their bodies made in that horrid night, singing the words written to mock their hope/ On the streets, the marauders mark the ground with the cases of the killing rounds /picked up horridly to mask the proof that the promises of vain that leaders make/ that the land is still a butcher’s slab.’\n \n\n36:33\tChelsea Miya:\tKọ́lá’s passion for advocating for local languages, including drum languages, is in a way a part of the same struggle. Much like the #endSARS protestors, he’s fighting for Nigeria to find its own voice.\n \n\n36:47\tKọ́lá Túbọ̀sún:\tPeople don’t see this kind of literacy as equally as important as writing literacy or reading literacy. But it is a kind of literacy. When people mentioned, for instance, somebody who speaks only Yorùbá or writes in only Yorùbá is an illiterate, we forget that many of those people can actually learn, can actually understand and decode drum patterns, et cetera. So, I’m interested in how this kind of engines, a kind of civilization, survives along with modern ones as a way of moving the culture forward into the future. There are probably fewer people today who know how to read or listen to the drum as the way in the past, but I’m hoping that the medium of technology keeps them relevant and important for the next generation. [Music Begins: Drumming]\n \n\n37:45\tChelsea Miya:\tIn part two of this episode, airing next season, we’ll look more closely at how the talking drum functions as not just an art, but as technology.\n \n\n37:55\tPeter Olálékan Adédòkun:\tWhat makes a master drummer? It has to do with your years of experience, the ability to lead, and your impact on other people’s lives and society.\n \n\n38:06\tChelsea Miya:\tWe’ll also meet a talking drum master and learn about the art of drum making. [Music Ends: Drumming]\n \n\n38:23\tHannah McGregor:\t[Theme Music] SpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from and created using Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. Our producers this month are SpokenWeb team members, Chelsea Miya and Sean Luyk of the University of Alberta. Our podcast project manager and supervising producer is Stacey Copeland and our assistant producer and outreach manager is Judee Burr. A big thank you to Titilope Sonuga, Wisdom Agorde, Kọ́lá Túbọ̀sún, and Tunde Adegbola for their generous contributions. And a special thank you to master drummer. Peter Olálékan Adédòkun who provided music for the episode. To find out more about SpokenWeb, visit spoken web.ca and subscribe to the SpokenWeb Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you may listen. If you love us, let us know, rate us and leave a comment on Apple podcasts or say hi on our social media @SpokenWebCanada. From all of us at SpokenWeb, be kind to yourself and one another out there. We will see you back here next month for another episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast: stories about how literature sounds."],"score":3.9476833},{"id":"9594","cataloger_name":["Ella,Hooper"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S4E3, Drum Codes [Part 2]: Sounds of Data, 5 December 2022, Miya"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/drum-codes-part-2-sounds-of-data/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 4"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Chelsea Miya"],"creator_names_search":["Chelsea Miya"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/9162060349751401864\",\"name\":\"Chelsea Miya\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2022],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/f155a6f6-3a58-44fe-8b40-8536a7c437ab/audio/89995b0d-9cfc-4a2e-a427-ad697eb76aea/default_tc.mp3?nocache\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"s4e3.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:50:41\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"48,663,031 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"s4e3\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/drum-codes-part-2-sounds-of-data/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2022-12-05\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta Humanities Centre\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.5269794\",\"longitude\":\"-113.51915593663469\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta Humanities Centre"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"content_notes":["No transcript."],"contents":["Audio technology and audio data come in radically different forms. This month’s episode, “Sounds of Data” is a follow up to Season Two’s “Drum Codes” and takes us deeper into the sonic world of data: from the sounds of surveillance to music of the stars to the wireless transmission of drum songs. Featuring interviews with sound artist and poet Oana Avasilichioaei, NASA sonification expert Matt Russo, and speech technologist Tunde Adegbola, each offering a unique perspective on the question: what does data sound like?\n\nSpecial thanks to master drummer Peter Olálékan Adédòkun, whose music you hear in the first half of the episode. Original music and performance clips were also provided by Oana Avasilichioaei and by Matt Russo and his team at SYSTEM Sounds. Thank you, as well, to Sean Luyk, who co-produced the “Drum Codes” episode and played a significant role in conceptualising this follow-up."],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"No transcript.\",\"type\":\"General\"}]"],"Related_works":["[]"],"_version_":1853670549530607616,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:53.966Z","score":3.9476833},{"id":"9599","cataloger_name":["Ella,Hooper"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S4E8, Ambient Connection: The Sounds of Public Library Spaces, 5 June 2023, Trotter"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/ambient-connection-the-sounds-of-public-library-spaces/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 4"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Maia Trotter"],"creator_names_search":["Maia Trotter"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Maia Trotter\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2023],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://the-spokenweb-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/ambient-connection-the-sounds-of-public-library-spaces\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:48:40\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/ambient-connection-the-sounds-of-public-library-spaces/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2023-06-05\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta Humanities Centre\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.5269794\",\"longitude\":\"-113.51915593663469\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta Humanities Centre"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[{\"note\":\"Listed on site as S4E7. Not downloadable, so some entries (file name, size) are left empty.\",\"type\":\"General\"}]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"EPL Makerspace\\nhttps://www.epl.ca/makerspace/\\n\\nEPL Gamerspace\\nhttps://www.epl.ca/milner-library/gamerspace/\\n\\nShelley Milner Children’s Library\\nhttps://www.epl.ca/milner-library/childrens-library/\\n\\nKatherine McLeod, “Listening to the Library”\\nhttps://labs.library.concordia.ca/listening-to-the-library/\\n\\nValentine, P. M. (2012). A social history of books and libraries from cuneiform to bytes. The Scarecrow Press, Inc.\\n\\nPeesker, S. (2019). Sounds like hard work: How the right noise can help you focus and be more creative. The Globe and Mail. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article-sounds-like-hard-work-how-the-right-noise-can-help-you-focus-and-be/\\n\\nBuxton, R. T., Pearson, A. L., Allou, C., Fristrup, K., & Wittemyer, G. (2021). A synthesis of health benefits of natural sounds and their distribution in national parks. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 118(14). https://doi-org.login.ezproxy.library.ualberta.ca/10.1073/PNAS.2013097118\\n\\nHan, Z., Meng, Q., & Kang, J. (2022). The effect of foreground and background of soundscape sequence on emotion in urban open spaces. Applied Acoustics. https://doi-org.login.ezproxy.library.ualberta.ca/10.1016/j.apacoust.2022.109039\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549660631040,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:54.290Z","contents":["In this episode, Maia Trotter—SpokenWeb research assistant and recent graduate of the MLIS program at the University of Alberta—explores what libraries actually sound like. Featuring interviews with three staff members at the Edmonton Public Library Stanley A. Milner branch and her own personal reflections, this episode considers how the sounds of library spaces have changed over time, and the connection between those sounds and the ways that libraries can make us feel.\n\nDuring the COVID pandemic, before she had ever set foot in a classroom dedicated to learning about libraries, Maia Trotter discovered a YouTube video titled “Library Ambiance.” This video didn’t contain the typically fabricated sounds of a library that someone had layered over each other like book pages turning and a fireplace crackling in the background, but a live recording of the sounds of a public library out there in the world. These sounds are what helped her to get through the isolation she felt during those long months at home.\n\nHaving now been surrounded by ideas about libraries for the last two years, Maia decided to investigate the different sounds of libraries, how they have changed over time, and how they make people feel. For this episode, Maia interviews three staff members of the Edmonton Public Library Stanley A. Milner branch who work in unique spaces to get their perspectives on the way sound affects patrons and staff members alike. She interviews staff members who have worked in the Makerspace, Gamerspace, and the children’s library in order to explore the relationship between feeling and sound in libraries, and how the sounds of libraries have changed over time.\n\nSpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from (and created using) Canadian Literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. To find out more about SpokenWeb visit: spokenweb.ca . If you love us, let us know! Rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or say hi on our social media @SpokenWebCanada.\n\n(0:00)\tSpokenWeb Podcast Theme Music:\t[Instrumental Overlapped With Feminine Voice] Can you hear me? I don’t know how much projection to do here.\n(00:18)\tKatherine McLeod\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive? Welcome to the SpokenWeb podcast, stories about how literature sounds. [SpokenWeb theme music ends]\n[Katherine talks softly] In this episode we are in a library. [Katherine makes a shushing noise, “shh”]\n\nI’m talking quietly because I’m in a library. I’m in a library at the University of Toronto and I’m here in the stacks talking quietly because a library is a place where you are supposed to be quiet, a place of silent reading. But libraries are also full of sounds. Not just the sounds of the library, the entrance, the beep of the book checkout, hushed voices, pages turning, but also the sounds of audio materials held within the library.\n\nIn 2021, I was the researcher in residence at Concordia’s Library. And my project, Listening to the Library, linked in the show notes was all about exploring sound materials and sites of sound within the library. The library is full of sound and that’s why at the SpokenWeb Symposium last year when SpokenWeb research assistant Maia Trotter pitched an idea about a podcast episode about the sounds of public libraries, I was so keen to hear what you would come up with.\n\nMaia takes us into a public library in Edmonton and she takes time to really listen to its sounds and what sounds it makes. The library has never been noisier, but noisy in a positive sense. The library as a place of making, of listening and of community. Here’s this month’s episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast, live from the Library and produced by Maia Trotter: Ambient Connection: The Sounds of Public Library Spaces. [SpokenWeb Theme music swells and then fades out]\n\n(02:18)\tAmbient Library Audio\t[Indiscernible voices talking over one another]\n(02:22)\tMaia Trotter\tWhat do you hear when you close your eyes and think of a library? Do you hear pages turning, books being reshelved, perhaps some hushed whispers or maybe even the infamous librarian “shush”? [Sound effect of a person shushing plays]\nHow much of that is real and how much of it is just an idea or an expectation of what a library is and sounds like?\n\nHi everyone, my name is Maia and I am a metadata assistant for the SpokenWeb University of Alberta team. I recently finished my Master of Library and Information studies at the University of Alberta, which was a two, two year program that introduced me to a world of libraries, so different from my original perceived notions of what libraries are and what they sound like.\n\nMy interest in the sounds of libraries originated during the Covid Pandemic when everyone was in lockdown and I was working from home. I was fortunate enough to still be living with my family at the time, so I wasn’t completely isolated, but I remember long stretches of silence with just the sound of my hands typing on my laptop. As many people did, I felt lonely, but even phone calls with my friends didn’t feel like enough sometimes.\n\nI tried to listen to music while I worked or shuffled around at home, but the music either distracted me or failed to help ease the loneliness I felt. One day as I was searching YouTube for some lo-fi beats to listen to, I came across a video titled Real Library Ambiance. I could hear books, people’s lowered voices, the dull thud footsteps, pens scratching across paper, chairs pushing in and out, and the low hum of the traffic outside. I listened to this video many, many times throughout the pandemic as I attempted to feel closer to the world outside our house.\n\nI found comfort in hearing the everyday sounds of people using these spaces, and there was something about libraries in particular that made me feel calm and connected. The sounds of that video hadn’t necessarily been what I was expecting when I clicked on it, but that difference was exactly what I needed to hear.\n\nIt was about a year and a half later after I’d already begun my master’s program that I discovered I wasn’t the only one to find comfort in the sounds of real libraries during the pandemic. I read an article in The Guardian that reported that many people had been accessing real library ambiance sounds during the pandemic and during periods of time when libraries were closed. And so I began to wonder about sounds and libraries and why we find comfort in them and why I had gravitated towards real library sounds during the pandemic, compared to the soft and edited sounds that I had originally expected to hear when I clicked on that video.\n\nAs I sifted through videos on YouTube, I found obvious differences in actual recordings of real world libraries compared to edited and created videos of library ambiance, which would typically consist of sounds of pages turning layered with sounds like a crackling fireplace or rain on a tin roof. The sounds in the actual recordings of libraries were full of life, of people talking, people moving, and not really the sounds we might expect when we think of a library.\n\nAnd so this is what we will be discussing today. What do libraries sound like now and how do they differ from our preconceived notions of what they sound like? How have their sounds changed over time? Does this make people feel differently?\n\n[Ambient sound of children and adults talking in a library]\n\nIn order to better understand sounds in a public library, I interviewed three staff members from the Edmonton Public Library, Stanley A. Milner branch, which is the downtown library and the largest branch in the EPL system. I interviewed Dan Hackborn, who works in the Makerspace, Charlie Crittendon, who frequently works in the gamer space, and Anna Wallace who works in the Children’s Library.\n\nMy first question to them was to take me through an average workday for each of them in these unique spaces.\n\n(06:14)\tDan Hackborn\tHi, my name is Dan Hackborn. I’m currently employed by the Edmonton Public Library Makerspace, and I’ve worked there for five years at that specific location or branch.\n(06:27)\tMaia Trotter\tSo maybe first if you could just take us through an average day working in the Makerspace.\n(06:32)\tDan Hackborn\tIt’s in quite a bit of flux right now. There is a real push to open up all the services that were promised with the downtown branch’s retrofit as quickly as possible after a couple of years of more slowly and carefully deploying services. So right now it can be any mixture of learning new services, giving certifications or guidance to members of the public on existing services and planning models for potential future services, and then performing maintenance on existing services as well.\n(07:17)\tMaia Trotter\tCould you give us some examples of what those services are?\n(07:21)\tDan Hackborn\tThe existing services we have right now are free printing which requires regular maintenance of the printers and fixes, the recording studios, which basically just requires minor tuning of guitars- [Sound effect of a guitar string being plucked]\n-and software updates and things like that. Creative computers, which are all managed centrally. So we don’t really have to do much IT on those aside from some minor admin stuff, and the vinyl cutting and key press service, which doesn’t require that much maintenance.\n\nAnd finally, the sewing machine and surging service, which is our newest service. [Sound effect of sewing machine whirring plays] And that mainly requires cleaning of the sewing machines. [Soft string music begins to play in arpeggios] And then all of them require certification and education for members of the public when they’re using them for the first time. So that happens between a mix of short kinds of orientations that last 15 minutes to full three hour courses. [Music swells and fades]\n\n(08:29)\tMaia Trotter\tHi Anna.\n(08:30)\tAnna Wallace\tHello!\n(08:31)\tMaia Trotter\tSo you work at the Children’s Library at EPL, correct?\n  (08:36)\tAnna Wallace\tI do. Technically it’s like a blended position. I work on the literacy vans out in the wilds of Edmonton, [Maia laughs] but I also work, yes, part-time in the Children’s Library downtown.\n(08:49)\tMaia Trotter\tThat’s awesome. Could you tell me a little bit about The Children’s Library and what your day-to-day looks like while you’re working there?\n(08:55)\tAnna Wallace\tThe Children’s Library downtown is huge. So it kind of has its own square footage inside Milner that is about the same as a regular size branch of the Edmonton Public Library. So it kind of turns into its own little world. The way that the shape is spaced, it ends up being kind of a corral in the corner of the first floor of Milner.\nSo we have quite a bit of space for our families to come and hang out in. So your day, just like working a desk can be, honestly day to day, it can look vastly different. It depends on how many people are in the space, how many programs are running that day, whether or not there’s tours in this space or just kind of like what needs your customers are looking for from you as a representative of the Edmonton Public Library.\n\nSo a lot of the time we’re just kind of hanging out, waiting for like, cause the library work is very responsive, right? Like you are, you’re there with library services and you’re waiting for what the customer needs from you or the patron needs from you. So a lot of days can be intensely hectic because our children’s library has turned into an attraction space because it has a lot of interactive elements for the kids to be learning and playing with.\n\nSo there’s a lot of space, for example, we have a little playhouse for three and under to be like climbing on. We have lots of interactive things on the walls to engage their brains obviously, but also just like lots of stuff to play with. So a lot of our families are coming in not only to borrow books and look at our services or our programming but to just be in the space and let their kids kind of interact with the space.\n\nSo sometimes you come in on a Saturday and it sounds like you’re walking into a play gym in a rec center or like Treehouse and you have to question yourself like, didn’t I get into library service?\n\n11:10\tMaia Trotter\t[Maia laughs] Aren’t libraries quiet?\n11:12\tAnna Wallace\tRight? Yeah. Because I mean, it’s a very, like, a very busy space. So within a shift you can be, you can be programming in the program room for a small number of people which is like noise and like, like especially if it’s an early literacy program, you’ve got shakers going. [Sound effect of music with shakers plays]\nYou’ve got music going, you’ve got children interacting with you, and then once that’s done, you could be on the floor helping people with, oh my goodness, like anything on the computer, 3D printing, getting video games set up, letting people into our children’s maker space, explaining things in the children’s maker space. Or you could be running a story stop, which we do every single day.\n\nOr just helping people with the provocations or crafts that we have on the floor. There’s just, it gets really, really intense in there sometimes, a lot of the time, actually, most of the time these days. It’s really, really, really intense. [Shake music ends]\n\n(12:11)\tMaia Trotter\tWe’ve got our next guest here, Charlie, who works in the EPL Gamer Space. Thanks so much for being here.\n(12:18)\tCharlie Crittenden\tYou’re very welcome. Thanks for having me.\n(12:20)\tMaia Trotter\tCharlie, could you tell us a little bit about the Gamer Space and what your day-to-day looks like while you’re working there?\n(12:26)\tCharlie Crittenden\tAbsolutely. Yeah. So the GamerSpace is a room in the Stanley Milner Library, which is dedicated to trying to make gaming more accessible for library customers, sort of creating and giving opportunities to access different kinds of gaming technologies. So we have each of the major consoles there, you know, Xbox, Nintendo Switch, PlayStation, we have a bunch of gaming PCs there as well.\nAnd then we have some sort of retro arcade cabinets there with a bunch of cool games on ’em. So my day-to-day work there is really just, you know, welcoming people into the space, [Electronic music begins to play]\n\nexplaining to them how it all works, helping them get on these various devices, and then sometimes troubleshooting or providing advice, helping out with any issues that might arise. [Music ends]\n\n(13:15)\tMaia Trotter\tYou don’t work exclusively in the Gamer Space though?\n(13:19)\tCharlie Crittenden\tThat’s right. So the Gamer Space is actually staffed by a rotating group of librarian employees drawn from different departments, the Maker Space, the children’s library, and the general library staff as well. People kind of cycle in and out of there throughout the day. [Ambient sounds of people talking plays]\n(13:34)\tMaia Trotter\tNow that I know what an average day looks like for these folks, I wanted to know how these spaces sound in comparison to the rest of the library. I could have chosen to interview staff members about the sounds of the library as a whole, but as we will discuss, libraries are no longer the kinds of institutions they used to be, even if our perceptions are still a little bit behind, and these specific areas we’re talking about are clear indicators of that evolution of space. So I wanted to focus on them and the ambiance they contribute to the library. [Ambient sound ends]\n(14:09)\tAnna Wallace\tIt’s been many a moon since libraries have been quiet spaces, to be completely honest. I mean, I’ve been working for EPL for like a decade now, and it’s never really been like, it’s not like don’t come in and scream your head off, but a certain level of humans being in a space together noise is kind of accepted now. We’ll definitely separate our quiet spaces.\n[Soft light music begins to play]\n\nLike if someone walks into the children’s library and is like, oh my God, we can be like, Hey, there’s quiet spaces on the third floor, or this study room is great, or whatever. But study spaces in the children library aren’t, they’re not copasetic.\n\n(14:53)\tCharlie Crittenden\tSo in terms of library policies, it is interesting to note that we do have a specific policy to not try to, we still don’t allow people to yell too loudly or something like that, you know, or something that’s really disruptive.\nBut like, we do have a higher, like we sort of welcome more noise in that space if people are just having a good time and like the more the level of, you know, cheering or yeah, just kind of calling out or getting excited that’s totally okay and sort of welcomed as part of the gaming experience of, you know having that kind of community of fun around it.\n\nOf course there’s some people who are just kind of quietly playing and doing their own thing, but yeah, that’s definitely something that we welcome in that space. And that’s a bit of a difference to the rest of the library where we would generally ask for people to keep their noise levels more at a conversational level. And yeah, so it’s definitely a special space in that regard for noise.\n\n(15:49)\tAnna Wallace\tYeah, Milner is a very popular branch for our downtown families and public. So it does, like, the Milner itself can get very, very loud and I find that the open space, when you walk into the library, you see the digital wall and you can kind of like see the ramps going up. Like you can hear pretty much everything when you’re in that space. The children’s library itself is a little bit off to the corner, so I feel like they did make a conscious choice to be like, okay, we’re not gonna put the children’s library with a giant open ceiling because then the noise of the children’s library is gonna end up everywhere in Milner.\nI mean, I’ve gotten used to now on my breaks that like, I go find a dark room and like I just, I don’t talk to anybody [Anna laughs] and I just eat my lunch in the dark room because sometimes the space can be so overwhelming that like I myself need a reset button before I can go back on the floor.\n\n(16:49)\tDan Hackborn\tThe design decisions for the Maker Space leaned into more of a bare bones industrial aesthetic. So there are concrete floors in the Maker Space and the ceiling ducting and wiring and stuff is all exposed, which in some ways looks good. I’m a fan of this aesthetic but it has extremely different acoustic properties than the rest of the library.\n[Soft electronic music begins to play]\n\nWhereas the rest of the library things like books actually act as essentially natural sound absorption barriers within the library or within the Maker Space specifically, there’s almost no soft surfaces. Like that we actually had to install some acoustic paneling on the ceiling because at the beginning it was so incredibly loud and impossible to hold a conversation, particularly when we were covering our faces in masks and had the plastic barriers up.\n\n[Music ends]\n\nSo any, basically any conversation anywhere in the space automatically becomes simultaneously magnified and fades into a gray noise where it’s hard to tell what words are actually being said. So that’s the main characteristics of the acoustics in the Maker Space.\n\n(18:16)\tMaia Trotter\tWhen we think of a library, I think we usually refer back to what we have seen in media, which is usually based on libraries of an older generation. I personally think back to that scene in the Music Man when Marian, the librarian, is stamping each book to be checked out, interspersed with s shushes and books being stacked or reshelved in an echoey and quiet environment.\n(18:46)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Hill\t[Arpeggiating brass plays in the background] No, it’s all right. I know everything and it doesn’t make any difference.\n(18:50)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Marian\tI don’t know what you’re talking about. You please make your selection and leave.\n(18:55)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Hill\tI have.\n(18:56)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Marian\tWhat do you wanna take out?\n(18:57)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Hill\tThe librarian.\n(19:00)\t[Scene from The Music Man] Marian\tShhhh. Quiet please.\n(19:03)\tMaia Trotter\t[Ambient sounds from a library begins to play] Throughout history, libraries have typically been indicators of wealth, class, and higher social status, and were thus exclusionary in nature. The materials required to create books were expensive, and the labor to create them was extensive, so they were only available to those with great means.\nThey were typically exclusive spaces reserved for academic spheres in the upper class. Public libraries as we understand them today, didn’t even really start to appear until the mid 1800’s. Silence is a common characteristic of how we generally think of library spaces and has typically been enforced throughout history. But there is an oppressive nature to enforced silence, and as libraries have evolved as public spaces, so too has their acceptance and even encouragement of sounds.\n\nBut this is a more recent approach, and it wasn’t until the 21st century that libraries began to incorporate more spaces like the Maker Space and evolve into spaces that could really be considered community hubs rather than book houses of the past.\n\nAs someone who has studied libraries for the past two years, I will be the first to say that libraries have their problems and they are still not wholly inclusive institutions, despite the vocational awe that permeates most of the general public perception. [Background noise ends]\n\nBut libraries have changed and over time have become increasingly community-led spaces unless their sounds have changed and the sounds themselves represent what a community wants, what it feels, where it struggles, and where it draws comfort. And so with that in mind, I asked my interviewees what were the most frequently heard sounds in each of these spaces.\n\n(20:41)\tCharlie Crittenden\tThe sounds you hear most often emanate from the various consoles. So each of the consoles has its sort of in a the switches up with the front of the room, sort of with the largest TV instead of speakers, which are sort of directionally positioned to try to keep the sound more located like around the couch. That’s couches that are facing it, but you can still hear it throughout the space.\nAnd then the PlayStation on the Xbox are in little sort of areas as well that have speakers sort of near where the people are seated. And so when you’re in the space, you’ll usually hear a variety of sounds from those three different sources. Most often you’ll hear the sounds of Mario kart, like getting started, you know, the engines rubbing and the sort of countdown of the race about to begin. [Sound bite of race starting in Mario Kart]\n\nYou hear Super Smash Bros as a very common one as well. With the sounds of the battle going on or the announcements of the different sessions going on there. You might also hear unexpected noises, like, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the game Untitled Goose Game, but it features a goose, which is just basically walking around cracking constantly. [Soundbite of music from the Goose Game plays and ends] So that’s like a fairly common noise you might hear. But like on our other consoles, for example, very popular games are FIFA or NHL. So you’ll hear kind of like, you know, sports stadium noises that sort of thing. [Soundbite of crowd cheering plays and ends]\n\nYou know, like the sort of that side of gaming. In the space there is a restriction of no rated M games allowed sort of rated teen or under, so you don’t actually have as many like, shooting games, although you do have some. So you do hear some of that sort of like gunfire perhaps, but it’s like less often. And it’s more so these sorts of more either like, you know, family friendly Nintendo games like I was describing, or the sports games are the most common.\n\n(22:30)\tDan Hackborn\t[Sounds of people talking ambiently in the background begins to play and then fades]\nBecause there’s reporting studios and stuff like that, music is a lot more probable in the space versus other parts of the library. There is that grand piano down on the main floor which would be the other major space. But in the maker space, you either catch glimpses whenever someone opens a door to the recording studios, it kinda escapes momentarily or if they’re loud enough you can actually hear it, sometimes.\n\nThere’s one guy at the temporary branch before we actually moved into Milner, who was regular, came in every week and played bagpipes. [Soundbite of bagpipes playing begins] And it is my understanding that it’s impossible to play bagpipes quietly. I’m like, you could just hear him over the entire, throughout the entire branch. [Bagpipes fade and end]\n\n(23:25)\tCharlie Crittenden\tAnother notable noise you’ll hear comes from the arcade cabinets. And so on those, it’s like a lot of the kind of retro noises of say like original Mario or very commonly you’ll hear you know, a Pacman or something like that. And then the noises of, or like, you know, Mortal Kombat or something like that, and you’ll hear the noises of the kind of joysticks and buttons getting mashed, that sort of thing.\nSo I’d say those are the most common noises that you might hear in the space. Oh, and sorry, one more point is that you’ll also hear people talking to each other, right? So there’s a lot of times people playing games together. And so especially on the consoles you might hear people, you know, cheering when they score a goal in FIFA or kind of joking around with each other.\n\nMaybe they’re playing Fortnite together on some of the PCs and talking about, you know, what’s going on or something. So you will hear, you know, definitely a fair bit of conversation as well from people cheering or getting excited or talking to each other. [Calm soft electronic music begins to play]\n\n(24:33)\tDan Hackborn\tMachines that make, and equipment that make noises themselves, whether that’s actually the 3D printers which are noisy enough that they actually have what’s called a stealth mode, [Music ends] which makes them move more slowly, turns down the sound, makes the print take longer cause it’s moving more slowly in case you’re in an office that doesn’t want the noise to be that loud.\n(24:58)\tMaia Trotter\tCould you describe any of the sounds that the 3D printer makes?\n(25:04)\tDan Hackborn\tYeah. Like a [Dan imitates a low droning noise]  and like a, [Dan imitates a low churning noise] and those are probably the two main noises.\nThe fan turning on and off, which sounds like a fan. The filament coming off the spool has a very specific noise that’s probably impossible to replicate with the human mouth, like in a large less band being kind of stretched breaking.\n\n(25:31)\tMaia Trotter\tOh, okay. I’ve never used any of the 3D printers in the library or at the university, so I have no idea what they sound like.\n(25:39)\tDan Hackborn\tYeah.\n(25:42)\tAnna Wallace\t[Soft piano music with light percussion begins to play] The sound of children, of course. So either laughing, playing or screaming, crying, which is natural children are gonna communicate the way they’re gonna communicate. [Music ends] You get a lot of once an hour, the cuckoo clock will remind you of its existence, [Soundbite of a cuckoo clock plays] which is right beside the desk.\nYou’ll hear the sound of like sometimes pretty frequently the like floor cleaning machine from custodial will come through, you’ll hear teens or tweens playing Roblox, which you always question like, are they friends if they’re talking to each other like that when they’re playing this game? [Maia laughs] But I assume so cuz they’re back every single day doing the same thing. So it’s a lot of people sounds.\n\n(26:37)\tLibrary audio\tAmbient audio of people chatting in a library. No one person’s voice is audible.\n(26:38)\tMaia Trotter\tNow that we know what we can hear in these unique spaces, even if it may not be what we would’ve expected to hear, I wanted to know more about how sound affects people’s emotions or moods when they visit these spaces. I experience my own set of emotions when I use the downtown library, but I’m usually using the common spaces, the open areas. So I wanted to know what my interviewees thought about the emotions of patrons using the Maker Space, the Gamer Space, and the children’s library.\n(27:08)\tCharlie Crittenden\t[Soft electronic music begins to play] Hopefully I would say that it creates a welcoming sense of fun of it being the sense that it’s a different sort of space than the rest of the library. I think sometimes it can maybe draw in different audiences of people who enjoy games who come there specifically just to play the games and enjoy that environment and being around other people who are playing games, having fun talking to each other about it.\nYou know, I think you might have just maybe a sense of relaxation or of, you know, just having fun, you know, like watching, say like a family play together, you know, on the switch racing on Mario Kart or something and laughing or having fun.\n\nLike it’s, I think the more permissive sense of, you know, just there being volume allowed on these consoles. They’re having speakers where we’re allowing this, this, these sounds to be played. I think it just creates this kind of relaxed environment where I think at least for people who enjoy games, enjoy the noises of games, I think it creates quite a fun sense of play.\n\n(28:21)\tDan Hackborn\tIt’s got complicated equipment in it and it’s a non-traditional part of the library. I think people automatically come into it and don’t know what to do with it. And while the staff tries to be very welcoming and say hi and things like that, like it still, I think, can be an intimidating space, whereas people walk into the rest of the library and like, it looks like what you’d expect a library to be given a common sociocultural understanding.\nWhereas this, I think there needs to be work done on making it approachable. It doesn’t feel like a living space yet. Like it’s a very new built environment. And so I think very smart people are working on changing that. But I do think there’s some work to be done on making it less intimidating cuz there is a definite noticeable sense that when someone walks into it and they don’t know what they’re walking into, they’re not walking into it with a specific purpose.\n\nThey don’t know exactly, like, I’m going to use the 3D printer, I’m going to book a recording studio. They’re kind of like, their eyes go wide. They may just come back out the way they came. They get very quiet, which is ironic given the traditional view of libraries and how that’s changed over time. And then that combined with the acoustic properties of the space, like people tend to whisper a lot more.\n\n(29:50)\tMaia Trotter\tInteresting. That’s not what I would’ve expected with people walking into the maker space, but the way that you’ve described it, that makes sense that they would be more quiet if it doesn’t feel familiar.\n(30:01)\tDan Hackborn\tYeah, totally. I think it’s super fascinating and I look forward to how decision makers in the library work at making it more like a living space rather than kind of like a cold laboratory setting.\n(30:18)\tAnna Wallace\tWe do story stops every day at 2:15 in the children’s library, and convincing kids to go on a little story time adventure with you is so fun. And I love when their parents force them to sit down for a story time. They’re just like, leave me alone. I wanna go back to the train table. [Maia laughs] I’m not interested in this literary nonsense. And then you start reading a story and my favorite is when I get a story that allows me to do a lot of voice changes and then the look in their face when they’re like, that’s not what your voice sounds like. [Maia laughs] Like where is that coming from? Is so fun.\n(31:05)\tCharlie Crittenden\tWhen people kind of walk in sometimes I feel like there’s just a sort of sense of interest or even wonder or excitement. And I think sometimes it’s related to like, for some people maybe with memories they have of going into other environments, like going to the arcades when they were younger. Like if they were from that generation of just like these noises of like, wow, I haven’t seen an arcade cabinet like this in so long. Or, you know, something like that.\nLike it’s, or those noises I think they have quite a nostalgic pull to them when people access games that they played when they were a kid. And so I know for me how I feel in the space, like when I see people playing games that I’m very nostalgic about, like Mario Kart or what have you, definitely has associations for me that really create a sense of, I don’t know, just fun.\n\nYeah. And so I think that can be some of the effect of the space, having these noises be welcomed of these different nostalgic elements of noises that for a lot of people connect elements of their childhood, like whatever, whenever that childhood was, different generations of gaming. I think that can be one of the effects of the noises in the space. [Music ends]\n\n(32:16)\tMaia Trotter\t[Ambient background library audio begins]\nSpecific sounds can evoke varied and powerful emotions in people. Emotions and feelings and thoughts can become attached to specific sounds based on our experiences. Various studies have shown major links between sound and emotion. One study in particular published in 2022 demonstrated that when there is a positive noise in the background and a negative noise occurs in the foreground, like a loud horn honk, for example. The emotional recovery from the negative sounds occurs more quickly because of the positive background sounds, which vary depending on the person.\n\nStudies positive sound examples included mostly nature sounds, but at least in my experience, a positive background sound for me is people laughing, children playing, soft music or nostalgic sounds like video game sound effects, which might partially explain why I felt generally more relaxed and happier when I was listening to library sounds and working from home, even if I heard loud traffic outside or the constant stress-inducing text message ding from my work phone.\n\nThere have also been several studies that have linked ambient sounds and background noises with increased productivity and the masking of everyday stressful or intrusive thoughts, which lead to the feeling of familiarity and relaxation. An article in the Globe and Mail from 2019 looked at a study being done at the University of British Columbia, which made these claims and gave the example of spaces like coffee shops, which would have similar sounds to a library being ideal environments for focusing and thinking creatively based on their average decibel level.\n\nThese studies have their exceptions and obviously not everyone reacts to ambient sounds the same way. But it was fascinating for me to discover this link because I’d experienced it myself. I think it is worth noting that studies have found that the most calming sounds were found to be nature sounds such as wind, the rustling of grass or trees, running rivers and babbling streams.\n\nAnd the most anxiety-inducing sounds for those of outdoor cityscapes like engines revving, horns honking, people yelling and loud music. Dounds in a library seem to sit somewhere in the middle. The sounds of a library are not as harsh and there’s still a general reduced nature of the sound, but you can still hear people talking and walking around and sometimes distant music. And yet I still find these sounds just as comforting as the sounds of nature.\n\nI think when we listen to the sounds of the city, we hear chaos, we hear movement and liveliness, but it is loud and jarring and harsh. That is not to say that loud or unexpected sounds don’t exist in library settings because they absolutely do and they are a part of the library experience. But because it is a public space with a specific and dedicated purpose, there does seem to be a general cohesiveness to the sound that doesn’t translate outside the building.\n\nI think the combination of sounds of other people and the familiar sounds of books, laughter, music, new things to try, and maybe even the distant sound of familiar video games, makes people feel the connection of that public space. A library may not have the calming sounds of nature, but it does have the deeply connecting sounds of community. And even if there are unexpected sounds, I feel as though I recover faster because I can still hear the comforting sounds in the background.\n\n[Background ambient sounds ends]\n\nI think when we think of spaces like libraries, spaces we usually consider to be literary spaces. We have fairly strong preconceived notions about how they sound. We think library, we think books, we think reading, which is usually thought of as a fairly quiet and individualistic activity. But the way libraries are structured now with this emphasis on a community-led approach, we encounter a literary space that is not only increasingly evoking specific emotion through sound, but also one that asks us to engage sonically or verbally in order to learn.\n\nFor anyone who wants to dig deeper into this idea of the sounds of literary spaces, I just wanted to briefly mention that one of our own here at Spoken Web, Dr. Katherine McLeod, [Spoken Web podcast theme music plays very quietly] put together an amazing blog post series while a research fellow at Concordia University in Montreal where Spoken Web is based and the series is sensory based investigation into audiovisual materials housed in library collections. It is a wonderfully insightful examination of not only what we hear in libraries, but how we listen to them. [Spoken Web music swells and fades’\n\nSo getting back to the sounds of learning.\n\n  (36:53)\tAnna Wallace\t[Soft bell tone music begins to play]\nI don’t know if it has particularly changed. Working in children’s, specifically. I mean I feel like I came into library work kind of as libraries were moving into kind of what they’ve called a community led philosophy in that we see that people are buying more books on Amazon or like DVDs are going out of style and all of that stuff. So you have to reevaluate what is the library for the communities that they serve.\n\nAnd it has really moved into being a community space where we’re trying to offer access to information and as best we can. So a lot of these days that’s not just, you know, books and prints, like books aren’t going anywhere. Everybody wants to, like, I get this from a lot of older generations where like, oh, you know, are you worried your job’s going anywhere? I’m like, my friend. My pal.\n\n(37:57)\tMaia Trotter\tI get that a lot too. [Maia laughs]\n(37:59)\tAnna Wallace\tRight? Like, we are the last free public space. If libraries are gone, civilization is just crumbling. Do you know what I mean? Like-\n(38:08)\tMaia Trotter\tThat’s how I answer that question too. [Maia laughs]\n(38:10)\tAnna Wallace\tRight? We’re not, we’re not going anywhere, right? But we do have to be thinking about how we can best serve our communities. So having these spaces where kids can be kids and be learning at the same time, I think is just so important. And it, it, yeah, it’s funny to me because if you’re trying to create that space for children in like a branch where you have to balance, okay, but we have people working on the computers and we have people studying in among the stacks, you need to keep, you know, you have to keep the whole of the branch in mind.\nThe beauty of being in the children’s library is that we can focus that space on, you know, 12 and under or, you know, 17 and under. Cause we do wanna encourage teens to be in our space as well.\n\n(39:02)\tDan Hackborn\t[low droning piano music begins to play] To the vinyl cutters or the sewing machines, which also have their own noises. You can actually look up, I think people have straight up programmed 3D printers to make sound or make songs themselves because they come with such a weird variety of noises. Not only there’s like four different motors on each one and belts and yeah, all just all kind like the extruding 3D printer film, it makes it to a noise. Yeah. It’s all kinds of stuff.\n(39:35)\tCharlie Crittenden\tOn the whole I find it sort of like a pleasant array of noises and sounds generally playing out and overlapping with each other. And I think they’re doing a fairly good job of designing the space with how the speakers are directed and positioned so that it’s not, and we can control the volume as well, so it’s not too overwhelming or too much. We try to keep it more to that sort of pleasant level, I guess, of noise.\n  (39:58)\tAnna Wallace\tLike, you know what I mean? Like the squeals, right? Like we want to hear them. We want them to explore and we want them to play because play is learning and you can’t expect a child to play particularly quietly, like on average.\nLike we all know those one or two kids that can like sit with a book and be quiet and all that stuff and we see it. But if you’re looking at an early literacy space, which half of our library is dedicated to early literacy, you’re looking at five years old and under, and that developmental range is just loud and gets excited and expresses themselves. So we want to make sure that they feel like they can do that in their space. And unless they’re like, hurting themselves or getting dangerous, then we don’t often step in because it does, it just ends up sounding like, oh, they’re just having a good time, or they’re interacting with the things that we’ve put out. [Music ends]\n\n(40:55)\tMaia Trotter\t[Soft piano music begins]\nAs employees, these folks spent a lot of time in the library compared to the average patron. And so my final question for them was to ask what their favorite sounds were in these unique spaces that are huge contributors to the changes in the sonic environments of libraries, most of which produce sounds that are so different from our preconceived notions of what libraries sound like.\n\n(41:18)\tCharlie Crittenden\tWell, I’d say as someone who enjoys gaming and I have lots of positive memories of gaming growing up and that sort of thing, I find it’s sort of a multi-layered experience of almost like different eras of my life of different memories and connections I have with different noises.\nSo, you know, when I was fairly young, going and playing Super Smash Bros on a M64 with some friends or something like that. So when I hear people or I see like let’s say, some friends playing Super Smash Bros and I hear those, you know, like, “SMASH” or whatever you know, “KO” it gets like these kind of very like deeply nostalgic, almost overly memorable noises that you just heard so many times in different parts of your life.\n\n(42:11)\tAnna Wallace\tI mean, I don’t know if it’s cheesy, but I do love a delighted giggle. I love listening to kids discovering something new or the grateful thank you when you like find the book that they were looking for or find something they weren’t looking for, but they get really excited about.\n(42:34)\tDan Hackborn\tMy favorite sound of the space. My favorite sound of the space is like people talking and being excited about projects that they’re interested in or that they’re making, like that feeling when you can tell someone’s just really excited about the thing they’re making or the thing that someone else is making.\nAnd I hope that the space continues to encourage those things. Cuz I think between a number of the characteristics I’ve mentioned, those conversations and those outbursts and exclamations are a lot more rare than I’d like them to be. But when they happen, that’s the best. Like, that’s the whole point of the space really. And so I’d just like to see, yeah, that’s my favorite and I’d like to see more of that.\n\n(43:19)\tMaia Trotter\tThat’s great. Yeah. I remember walking into the Maker Space for the first time and I think it was you and I, we were using the recording studio. I think that was like the first time I explored the MakerSpace and I remember my wow, like look at all the stuff you have in this one room. It’s so cool. [Maia laughs] That’s great.\n(43:39)\tCharlie Crittenden\tThe Gamer Space is really unique in this regard because there’s not many, if any, really, spaces like it in other libraries that are so dedicated in this way to gaming. So I think it’s really quite a unique set of noises that you could stumble across when you’re exploring the library. And I think noise is a big part and sound is a big part of what draws people in and sort of helps them enjoy their time in the space I think is, is these sort of different sets of sounds that they’re experiencing.\n(44:12)\tMaia Trotter\t[Soft arpeggiated piano begins to play] Like I’ve said throughout this episode, how libraries sound is typically not how we expect them to sound. And although that may be jarring for some, the evolution of libraries as public spaces has also caused the evolution of an increasingly sonically rich environment, which might have a more positive effect than we are currently aware of.\nI had no idea that when I clicked on that YouTube link a few years ago, it would open a door to a world of sound that has changed the way I work and the way I listen in public spaces. Although I still find comfort in listening to library ambient sounds like book pages turning and the soft thud of books being shelved, what I really enjoy is listening to sounds of people using the library. It feels so much more real to me. I have been fortunate enough to have positive experiences with libraries, so I typically associate library sounds with positive emotions.\n\nAnd this may not be the case for everyone, but based on what I heard from my interviewees, their favorite sounds all had to do with people enjoying using these unique library spaces, or at least sounds that indicated the spaces were indeed being used, like the gaming sounds. Or like Dan’s wonderful impression of the 3D printer. I find myself feeling relieved that libraries have moved away from enforcing silence and towards a more accepting approach to sound, especially given all the new additions of unique spaces that produce their own unique sounds.\n\n[Music ends]\n\nA library is meant to be explored and used and sound is a wonderful and comforting indicator of the evolution of that usage. Libraries are a way to connect with our communities, which is probably why I found so much comfort in the sounds of people using the library during a time of loneliness and isolation.\n\nHow we think a library sounds probably would not have offered me the same kind of comfort during that time. I wanted to hear life in a way that wasn’t overwhelming and the real sounds of the library gave me just that.\n\nI want to thank Edmonton Public Library for allowing me to record sounds in their spaces, and I especially want to thank Dan Hackborn, Charlie Crittendon and Anna Wallace for taking the time to talk to me about Sounds in Libraries. I’ll leave you with this, A taste of the comfort I experienced the first time I clicked on that YouTube video. Thank you.\n\n[Ambient sound of library: people walking, books being moved, pages flipping, etc]\n\n(47:49)\tKatherine McLeod\t[SpokenWeb theme music begins to play] The SpokenWeb podcast is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from and created using Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada.\nOur supervising producer is Kate Mofaitt, our sound designer is Miranda Eastwood. And our transcription is done by Zoe Mix. To find out more about spoken web, visit spokenweb.ca, subscribe to the SpokenWeb podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you may listen.\n\nIf you love us, let us know. Rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or say hi on our social media at @SpokenWebCanada. Stay tuned to your podcast feed later this month for ShortCuts with me, Katherine McLeod. Short stories about how literature sounds. [SpokenWeb music swells and then ends]"],"score":3.9476833},{"id":"9607","cataloger_name":["Ella,Hooper"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S6E6, Sound & Seconds: A Roundtable on Timestamping for Literary Archives, 19 May 2025, D'Amours, MacKenzie, Freeman, and Wu"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/sound-seconds/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 6"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Natasha D'Amours","Michael MacKenzie","Sarah Freeman","Xuege Wu"],"creator_names_search":["Natasha D'Amours","Michael MacKenzie","Sarah Freeman","Xuege Wu"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Natasha D'Amours\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Michael MacKenzie\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Sarah Freeman\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Xuege Wu\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2025],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/audio/ae6837bb-0fb9-49ac-9461-d3cb833658f7/default_tc.mp3?nocache\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"s6e7-mixdown.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:57:02\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"54,754,506 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"s6e7-mixdown\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/sound-seconds/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2025-05-19\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta Humanities Centre\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.5269794\",\"longitude\":\"-113.51915593663469\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, AB, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta Humanities Centre"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"Abel, Jordan. Nishga. McClelland & Stewart, 2021. pp.243-73\\n\\nBernstein, Charles. “‘1–100’ (1969) .” Jacket2, jacket2.org/commentary/1%E2%80%93100-1969. Accessed 17 Apr. 2025.\\n\\n“Charles Bernstein (Poet).” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 15 Feb. 2025, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bernstein_(poet).\\n\\nBolter, Jay David, and Richard Grusin. Remediation. MIT Press, 2000.\\n\\nOne central point of departure for our research, though we had to cut our remediation questions due to time.\\n\\n“Eadweard Muybridge.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 10 Apr. 2025, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eadweard_Muybridge.\\n\\nEliot, T. S. “‘Burnt Norton’ from Four Quartets.” Four Quartets – 1 Burnt Norton, www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/1-norton.htm. Accessed 17 Apr. 2025.\\n\\n“Gertrude Stein.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 28 Mar. 2025, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein.\\n\\n“Hayden White.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 5 Mar. 2025, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayden_White.\\n\\n“Jackson Mac Low at SGWU, 1971.” Edited by Jason Camlot and Max Stein, SpokenWeb Montréal, 17 Aug. 2015, montreal.spokenweb.ca/sgw-poetry-readings/jackson-mac-low-at-sgwu-1971/#1.\\n\\nThe full version of the recording shown during the episode can be found here. The portion shown during the episode begins at 1:09:35.\\n\\n“Jackson Mac Low.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 30 Mar. 2025, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_Mac_Low.\\n\\n“Susan Stewart (Poet).” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 14 Sept. 2024, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Stewart_(poet).\\n\\n“Wolfgang Ernst (Media Theorist).” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 12 Apr. 2024, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Ernst_(media_theorist).\\n\\nMore information about our participants can be found at:\\n\\n“Jason Camlot.” Concordia University, www.concordia.ca/faculty/jason-camlot.html. Accessed 17 Apr. 2025.\\n\\n“Michael O’Driscoll.” English and Film Studies, University of Alberta, apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/mo. Accessed 17 Apr. 2025.\\n\\n“Tanya Clement.” College of Liberal Arts at UTexas, liberalarts.utexas.edu/english/faculty/tc24933. Accessed 17 Apr. 2025.\\n\\nMusic Credits\\nThis podcast uses music from www.sessions.blue:\\n\\nFor post-question pauses, we used Jemeneye by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue).\\n\\nFor framing the podcast itself, we used the song The Griffiths by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue).\\n\\nFor framing the roundtable and preceding questions, we used portions of the song “Town Market” by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue).\\n\\nThis podcast also uses these sounds from freesound.org:\\n\\n“Mechanical Keyboard Typing (Bass Version)” by stu556 ( https://freesound.org/people/stu556/sounds/450281/? ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“Monitor hotler“, by iluminati_2705 ( https://freesound.org/people/iluminati_2705/sounds/536706/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“Monitor hotler“, by tobbler ( https://freesound.org/people/tobbler/sounds/795373/ ) licensed under Attribution 4.0\\n\\n“aluminum can foley-020.wav”, by CVLTIV8R ( https://freesound.org/people/CVLTIV8R/sounds/800102/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“whoosh_fx”, by ScythicBlade ( https://freesound.org/people/CVLTIV8R/sounds/800102/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“ignite_dry_02”, by DaUik ( https://freesound.org/people/DaUik/sounds/798712/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“Dewalt 12 inch Chop Saw foley-049.wav”, by CVLTIV8R ( https://freesound.org/people/CVLTIV8R/sounds/802856/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\\n\\n“Electronic Soap Dispenser 5”, by Geoff-Bremner-Audio ( https://freesound.org/people/Geoff-Bremner-Audio/sounds/802734/ ) licensed under Creative Commons 0\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549686845440,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:54.290Z","contents":["How does timestamping shape the preservation and curation of literary sound? This roundtable episode brings together four SpokenWeb researchers––Jason Camlot, Tanya Clement, and Mike O’Driscoll in conversation with moderator Michael MacKenzie––to explore this deceptively simple yet profoundly complex question. What emerges is a layered, multidisciplinary view of timestamping, not just as a technical task, but as an archival, aesthetic, and philosophical practice.\n\nIn Part One, the conversation begins by situating timestamping in broader historical and intellectual contexts. Panelists reflect on the epistemology of time, from ancient timekeeping and annalistic history to modern digital temporality. What does it mean to mark time, and how does a timestamp compare to a page number, an index, or a narrative structure?\n\nPart Two asks what it means to think critically about timestamping. Here, the guests draw on their scholarly practices to examine the subjectivity of timestamps, the tension between precision and ambiguity, and the role of annotation. The discussion turns to digital media’s microtemporalities and how timestamps carry expressive, affective weight beyond their data function.\n\nIn Part Three, the panel listens to an experimental performance by Jackson Mac Low and considers the challenge of timestamping layered or deliberately disorienting sound. What responsibilities do timestampers have in maintaining a balance between accessibility and artistic intention? Can timestamping illuminate without flattening?\n\nPart Four focuses on vocabulary. Why does it matter if we tag something as a “reading” versus a “performance”? How do controlled vocabularies shape what we can learn from large-scale literary audio corpora? This final section explores how even the smallest metadata decisions reflect theoretical commitments and institutional values.\n\nUltimately, this episode makes one thing clear: timestamping is never neutral. It is an interpretive act, grounded in choices about meaning, representation, and access. From poetic performance to archival platforms, timestamping remains central to how we listen to—and understand—literary sound.\n\n00:00:05\tSpokenWeb Intro Song\t[Oh, boy. Can you hear me? Don’t know how much projection to do here.]\n00:00:18\tHannah McGregor\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive?\nWelcome to the SpokenWeb Podcast, stories about how literature sounds. [Music fades]\n\nMy name is Hannah McGregor–\n\n00:00:36\tKatherine McLeod\tAnd my name is Katherine McLeod.\n00:00:39\tHannah McGregor\tOne of my favourite genres of SpokenWeb podcast episodes is the behind-the-scenes look at the material labour involved in creating, preserving, and studying literary sound.\nIn past episodes, we’ve talked about the work of transcription, the affordances of sound design, and the messy business of wading through archival collections.\nIn this new episode, producers Natasha D’Amours, Michael MacKenzie, Sarah Freeman, and Xuege Wu take us inside one of the most common kinds of work that research assistants, working on the SpokenWeb project, participate in: timestamping.\n\n00:01:19\tHannah McGregor\tDrawing on the insights and questions that have emerged from their own engagement with timestamping as a practice, the producers bring together a panel of three SpokenWeb researchers—Jason Camlot, Tanya Clement, and Mike O’Driscoll—for a roundtable discussion. Together, they explore epistemologies of time, the subjectivity of annotation practice, and the role of controlled vocabularies, concluding that timestamping is always an interpretive act grounded in choices about meaning, representation, and access.\n00:01:57\tHannah McGregor\tThis is Season 6, Episode 7 of the SpokenWeb podcast: Sound & Seconds: A Roundtable on Timestamping for Literary Archives. [SpokenWeb theme song plays and fades]\n00:02:17\tSarah Freeman\t[Upbeat instrumental music plays in the background]\nWhat does it mean to listen to literary history? Not just to hear voices from the past, but to make them searchable, structured, and accessible.\nFor SpokenWeb, timestamping goes beyond marking moments in an audio recording—it transforms sound into something legible, curates literary events, and preserves ephemeral voices. Each timestamp isn’t just a data point; it bridges raw audio with structured metadata. By logging sonic events alongside their timecodes, we create a detailed map of each recording. These timestamps are then transferred to a public-facing platform where users can engage with the archive, clicking on a timestamped event to jump directly to that moment.\n\n00:03:10\tSarah Freeman\tI’m Sarah Freeman, a student research assistant with SpokenWeb at the University of Alberta. I joined my fellow research assistants, Natasha D’Amours, Michael MacKenzie, and Xuege Wu, to take a deep dive into timestamping. After all, for most of us, our first task with SpokenWeb was timestamping—carefully listening to archival audio to identify and describe sonic events using a controlled vocabulary.\nThis work sits at the intersection of archival practice and digital humanities. But why does it matter? How does timestamping shape the preservation and curation of literary sound? As Phase One of SpokenWeb nears its conclusion, we turn to three scholars who’ve shaped this discussion: Jason Camlot—\n\n00:04:09\tJason Camlot – Audio Clip\t[Click-whirr] Timestamps have existed since the beginning of time. [Click-whirr]\n00:04:14\tSarah Freeman\tMike O’Driscoll–\n00:04:16\tMike O’Driscoll – Audio Clip\t[Click-whirr] I connect it to a whole series of print-based technologies and responses to an overflow of print information. [Click-whirr]\n00:04:25\tSarah Freeman\tAnd Tanya Clement–\n00:04:27\tTanya Clement – Audio Clip\t[Click-whirr] Time is a perspective, and a timestamp can be off, given a perspective. [Click-whirr]\n00:04:34\tSarah Freeman\tIn this episode, we bring you a roundtable conversation moderated by Michael McKenzie that dives into the intellectual, technical, and archival stakes of timestamping.\nLet’s press play [sound of needle dropping on record] and immerse ourselves in the layered sounds of literary preservation.\n00:04:55\tMichael McKenzie, Audio Clip\t[Soft instrumental music plays]\nOkay, so if everyone could just clap on three. Okay, one, two, three—[one clap]\n[Laughter]\nYeah, that was bad. That’s the worst timestamp ever. [Click-whirr]\n00:05:08\tMichael McKenzie\tMy name is Michael McKenzie. I’m a third-year PhD student at the University of Alberta, in English and Film Studies, and I’ll be moderating today’s roundtable on timestamping. [Soft instrumental music continues to play]\n00:05:26\tMichael McKenzie\t[Click-whirr followed by a beep]\nOkay, so, because we only have an hour, I’ll just introduce the first question. So, timestamping is one of the chief places where many graduate students working with SpokenWeb put in our hours. Our podcast teams experience has brought us to think about timestamping in part like literary indexing practices, something that literature has long been subject to by scholars through, for example, the table of contents.\n00:05:52\tMichael McKenzie\tTimestamping, however, is distinct and that it applies the practice of indexing to durational media such as video and audio by cutting it up into smaller periods of time that can easily be searched and studied. Among our team, we’ve begun to notice the ways timestamping exceeds these definitional boundaries to blur the lines with transcription, annotation, introduction, or summary.\n00:06:18\tMichael McKenzie\tThere seems to be a lot more happening with timestamping than its modest reputation suggests.\nSo given the diversity of institutions and styles across SpokenWeb, we’re so glad to have all of you here and your expertise as leaders in SpokenWeb to help us think through these problems and challenges further.\nSo maybe as a point of departure, you might all attempt a definition for timestamping, and explain what timestamping is or has been for you, and perhaps a defining moment for when you started to think about it seriously. [Upbeat music]\n00:06:55\tJason Camlot\tI wouldn’t mind going first because I I took it very seriously and began to think about what is that question: what is a timestamp?\n00:07:03\tSarah Freeman\t[Click-whirr] Jason Camlot, professor at Concordia University and PI [principal investigator] of SpokenWeb, specializes in literary sound recordings and digital artifacts. As the originator of the SpokenWeb project, he’s been around since the very first recordings were digitized and timestamped. [Click-whirr]\n00:07:23\tJason Camlot\tAnd so, I’d like to share a few theses on timestamps that I’ve just developed, right? The first one I want to mention is that, as I was thinking about this, timestamps have existed since the beginning of time. I think that’s an important place to start.\nTimestamps within digital systems, in that sense, represent one manifestation of a long history of temporal measurement—timekeeping and its mobilization for meaning-making. There’s a lot of scholarship on ancient timekeeping, both in relation to the seasons and in the development of mathematics as a way of producing a calculus of time for various purposes.\n\nSo, the conception of time in terms of measurable units and ideas of temporal precision goes back very far in history. Then I started thinking about Hayden White’s work from the 1980s on history, particularly the distinction between annals and historical narrative. I think that’ll be interesting to think about. [Click-whirr]\n\n00:08:22\tSarah Freeman\tHere, Jason is referring to the American theorist of history, Hayden White.\nWhite introduced medieval annals—lists of notable events organized by year—as alternatives to homogenizing historical narratives. Like timestamps, annals link moments in time to events that occurred within them, albeit on a much larger scale. A set of timestamps may be similar to annals, attributing equal importance to disparate threads of a sonic event.\n\nTimestamps may also emphasize similarities across a sonic event, creating a unified narrative of that event—but more often, timestamps do a little bit of both. [Click-whirr]\n\n00:09:06\tJason Camlot\tBecause, you know, annals, in a way, represent another form of historical timestamping, right? They’re just lists of dates and things that happened. But I think there’s an interesting relationship—perhaps even a tension. I’d probably want to think of it as a dialectical relation between the timestamp as a demarcated moment in time’s unfolding, and the larger narrative account within which that timestamp gains significance.\nSo that’s the first thesis.\n00:09:32\tTanya Clement\tI’m going to play devil’s advocate here. [laughs]\nI’m going to say that a timestamp is more like a page number—a way to reference something else you’re interested in. [Click-whirr]\n00:09:48\tSarah Freeman\tTanya Clement, an associate professor at the University of Texas, brings leading expertise in digital sound technologies, data searching and visualization in relation to literary audio and software development for sound pattern searching. [Click-whirr]\n00:10:06\tTanya Clement\tBecause the timestamp itself is only relevant to the extent that it points you to a concept, an idea, or an event. The way we’re working with timestamps in this project is to indicate or index an annotation. That annotation could be a transcript, a note, or a description. But the timestamp itself is significant only insofar as it points to a place on the material medium. This doesn’t mean it’s insignificant as a material aspect of that medium, but I don’t think it bears significance without an attached annotation—without a reason.\n00:10:58\tMike O’Driscoll\tYeah, I’m going to take a slightly different approach. I think of timestamping as a technology of information management. [Click-whirr]\n00:11:07\tSarah Freeman\tMichael O’Driscoll, professor at the University of Alberta and co-applicant of SpokenWeb, contributes deep knowledge of poetry and poetics, material culture, and archive theory. [Click-whirr]\n00:11:20\tMike O’Driscoll\tAnd I connect it to a whole series of print-based technologies and responses to a deluge of print matter in the mid-19th century—responses that led, for example, to the formation of the Royal Indexing Society in the UK. This included the standardization of cataloguing systems in libraries, a whole suite of archival management techniques, and other methods for handling an overflow of printed information at the time. One of the ways Western society responded to this was by developing a system of codified, standardized, and professionalized information management technologies.\nThese systems evolved over time. And with the emergence of durational media in the late 19th and 20th centuries, we also began to require new ways of counting and organizing time within those media.\n\n00:12:19\tMike O’Driscoll\tAnd so, like Tanya, I would probably connect those to various kinds of print technologies;you mentioned page numbers, but I think of them more predominantly as a form of table of contents—a form of indexation, a way to get inside the black box of analog and digital recordings in order to discern what those contents might be in a practical and manageable way, in advance of actually engaging those as listening events.\n00:12:51\tJason Camlot\tJust to reinforce– [Click-whirr]\n00:12:53\tSarah Freeman\tHere’s Jason Camlot jumping back in. This type of spontaneous exchange is part of the roundtable format, where anyone can speak up at any time. [Click-whirr]\n00:13:05\tJason Camlot\tThe emphasis on print that both Tanya and Mike made—the page, the page number, the index—highlights the mirrored presence of the term “stamp” in relation to temporality, right in the phrase itself. I think it really underscores that way of thinking about the control of time, or the attempt to control something that is, by nature, probably less controllable, you know, by fixing it in some way or another—with a reference or an index—we attempt to make time manageable.\nAnd I would just add to Mike’s point that so much of 19th-century print culture is periodical, right? It essentially divides itself into periods—whether it’s dailies, weeklies, or monthlies—each of which is a different measure of things happening within that span of time. So, the explosion of periodical literature in the 19th century is another strong manifestation of what Mike was talking about.\n\n00:14:11\tMike O’Driscoll\tHaving said that, Jason, I also found that your recourse to early time mechanisms—timekeeping mechanisms—is really fascinating, because it’s true that everything from sundials to Stonehenge, to much else—to the pyramids—are devoted to ways of marking time. And that time is also, you know, connected to astrophysical observations and all kinds of other geological observations. And, you know, it maybe is a false heuristic to divide these things, because they are all technologies of temporal management in one way or another, and time is just one more form of information.\n00:14:52\tJason Camlot\tDespite Tanya’s opening rhetorical gambit, I did not take them to be in opposition to each other whatsoever. Actually, I think what all three of us have said is quite continuous with one another.\n00:15:05\tTanya Clement\tWith one exception, though—I really, honestly, don’t see timestamps as a table of contents. I think it’s page numbers. In my mind, it really has very little information without an annotation attached. So, a table of contents doesn’t make much sense if you just have the page numbers; you have to say, like, what’s on those page numbers that you’re actually indexing. I think the same is true with information architectures—you know, just having numbered cells isn’t necessarily useful unless you know what they’re indicating.\nI still think I’m being a bit of a devil’s advocate here, because I’m not giving that much importance or significance to the timestamp in and of itself without the attached—what I would call—the annotation.\n\n00:15:58\tJason Camlot\tI don’t see that as being different from, say, the annals, right? The annotation there is how the crops were that year, right? You know, whatever—it’s referring to something that happened. So in that case, the annotation and the reference point in time is an event. It might have been an event related to the weather, or crops, or some political event, potentially. You know, when annals mention kings—when they took the throne, etc.—those are all indexing events that happened.\nOne thing I really like about your pushback, though—because when this question about what is a timestamp? was asked to me and I sort of went back in time—is how much I realized that, as we move from ancient history and conceptions of temporality through analog media and its modes of marking time to digital media, a lot of that shift seems to be about the scale at which one is doing annotations, and the increasing degrees of precision—what Wolfgang Ernst calls micro-temporalities—as we move into digital media.\n\nSo, I think a table of contents versus a timestamp, or annals that are annual versus a timestamp of a 3-minute recording with 50 annotations—those are questions of temporal scale that I think are really interesting to think about in relation to timestamps. But personally, I see them as working on a continuum.\n\n00:17:29\tMike O’Driscoll\tOne of the things I really liked that you said, Tanya, is that it actually invites us to make a finer distinction between the timestamp as simply the marking of time, and the annotation as the demarcation of content, or event, or evaluation, or summary judgment—whatever that might be—of that particular moment in time.\nAnd by saying, “Oh, it’s like a table of contents,” I think I’m collapsing those ideas into one concept. And it sounds like you’re working to keep them as distinct—distinct activities or distinct forms of impression. [Soft instrumental music plays]\n00:18:14\tSarah Freeman\tAs student assistants on the SpokenWeb U Alberta team, we see timestamping as a crucial intermediary step between digitizing reel-to-reel tapes and making them publicly accessible.\n00:18:28\tSarah Freeman\tWe use close listening to identify when specific sounds occur in the recordings and sometimes conduct archival research to determine, for example, which poem a speaker is performing. This process results in metadata, such as the following timestamp: “From 0:01 to 1:01, Earle Birney performs his version of Kurt Schwitters’ ‘Ursonate’.”\nIn creating these timestamps, we’re not just listening to and analyzing the recordings—we’re transforming them into written data, effectively turning sound into another form of media. [Instrumental music plays and fades]\n\n00:19:10\tMichael McKenzie\tThe next thing I wanted to ask is: why should we think critically about timestamping? This question comes from a place of thinking about timestamping as something that might fly under people’s critical thinking radar. What kinds of things have you encountered that made you start to think critically about timestamping?\nI have a list of examples here—everything from YouTube’s heat map algorithm, which shows how popular a video is at any given point along its time bar, to EKG (electrocardiogram) monitors that mark the rhythm of a heartbeat and any interruptions in it with beeps and squiggles. There are also the SETI Institute’s protocols for parsing sound from outer space to identify potential alien messages, and seismic monitors or lie detectors that give off sudden bursts of timestamping activity.\n\nThese are all examples with very specific goals and motives. Given the wide variety of things a timestamp can do, what brought you to start thinking critically about it?\n\n00:20:28\tTanya Clement\tSo obviously, especially in the context of the examples you gave, timestamping can be done for a variety of reasons, and different people might choose to index a recording differently for a variety of purposes. What I find interesting, though, is that when you engage with something like timestamping—and you try to translate those timestamps across systems or datasets, or manipulate the data in the process of transposing it from one format to another—what you sometimes find is that the timestamp gets altered. It becomes a little less accurate, a little bit off.\nAnd I think that does matter. I’m not sure if this is an exact response to your question, but it is something that feels closely related.\n\n00:21:24\tTanya Clement\tWhat comes to mind is that the act of timestamping reminds you that time can also be subjective. Especially because timestamping is inherently something that depends on a digital or electronic apparatus in some way, shape, or form. And those devices are calibrated according to different standards—different time zones, and many other variables. There’s also the question of precision: whether the timestamp goes to the thousandths of a second, or just to the milliseconds, or even less precisely.\n00:22:01\tTanya Clement\tSo I think there is some space to consider whether we are actually thinking about timestamps—and if, as I’m proposing, we disambiguate timestamps from the act of annotation itself. If we want to think about timestamps in a more theoretical or conceptual way, I do think there’s a provocation or an invitation to consider the extent to which time is a perspective—and how a timestamp can be off, depending on that perspective. Whether it’s a human perspective, a particular system, or a specific data format, time shifts. It’s not fixed.\n00:22:43\tMike O’Driscoll\tSo I was teaching T.S. Eliot’s Four Quartets yesterday, which is, of course, a poem about time—a really deep philosophical meditation on time—that I would argue can only be understood through listening to the poem. And I think that, in some ways, is Eliot’s argument: you cannot comprehend the poem’s bid for revelation or incarnation through critical description or classroom discussion. You can only get where he wants to take you by listening to the poem.\nAnd that’s predicated on those great lines toward the beginning of Burnt Norton:\n“If all time is eternally present, all time is unredeemable.\nWhat might have been is an abstraction,\nRemaining a perpetual possibility only in a world of speculation.”\n\n00:23:44\tMike O’Driscoll\tAnd Tanya, as you were talking about the transmediation of timestamps—the ways in which they go awry, and the ways in which they are unredeemable, in Eliot’s words—that’s what I was thinking about: that it’s actually an incredibly complex process to mark time. And we delude ourselves into thinking it’s a matter of simplicity. There’s so much going on in the presumptions we make about redeeming time in the space of durational media, and how we might mark and manage something that, as Eliot says, remains a perpetual possibility only in a world of speculation.\nThis is not only a deep philosophical problem—it’s also a very complex practical one.\n\n00:24:40\tJason Camlot\tGoing back to the distinction between analog and digital media, I think the idea of having greater control over something unfolding as it’s represented in a medium is key. And I would add photography to this. We could think of chronophotography, for example—Muybridge being one notable case. [Click-whirr]\n00:25:00\tSarah Freeman\tEadweard Muybridge was a 19th-century photographer known for using sequential images to capture motion, pioneering early studies of time and movement. [Click-whirr]\n00:25:12\tJason Camlot\tAnd then we can think of early cylinder recordings—and especially flat disc recordings—as having timestamps on them, or at least as representing or manifesting a certain kind of timestamping of time. In Muybridge’s case, each image is, in a way, a timestamp in a series of movements. But on a flat disc record, the spaces between tracks could be seen as timestamps, as the album side unfolds. They help you locate something that could also be matched up with time indicators next to a track—though that happens a bit later.\nThen, analog tape recorders began to include time counters. Not right away—in the 1930s, they didn’t have them—but eventually, they did, as it became more important to navigate and manipulate the recordings. So, there’s a strong sense of timestamping as a form of power over time, embedded in whatever media format one is engaging with.\n\nAnd I guess the point I was going to make about digital technologies, as opposed to analog ones, is that digitized and digital media represent a fuller realization of the timestamp concept in media form.\n\n00:26:35\tJason Camlot\tSo that is—time in digital media becomes sampled into these micro-temporalities. It’s not fluid in the way we understand analog media to be, because analog is made up of transduced patterns that don’t necessarily have natural breaks within them. But digital media is literally sampled—it’s slices of time. That’s how it’s represented. And so we could say that, as a media form, it lends itself even more to the idea of controlling time in the most infinitesimal ways.\nBut where I want to go is actually to my last thesis, in relation to what Tanya was saying, which is that timestamps also have the potential to express. That’s the thesis—it’s an ambiguous or cryptic one, and I’m going to unpack it. I think it has something to do with what Tanya was pointing out about the subjectivity of timestamps. What I mean by that is the possibility of an aesthetic or a poetics of the timestamp in itself. And I love the idea that timestamps, when disconnected from their annotations or from their historical or temporal events, can go awry in a variety of ways.\n\nThey are primarily mechanisms of precise control over time—for a variety of purposes, to make arguments, to serve different ends. But the example I have in mind is actually a chapter in Jordan Abel’s book Injun. There are a couple of sections where he offers a timestamped transcript from a lecture he gave at the TransCanada conference. And if you read that text as a poem, I think what he’s performing there is exactly what Tanya was talking about—he’s really attempting, in this piece of writing (which consists of a lot of timestamps), to explore that poetics.\n\nI’ve actually read it out loud, and when I quote from it, a long section might be something like: 15:38:53–15:38:54, right? That’s just the passage of a second. But it carries so much weight in how it’s presented.\n\n00:28:56\tJason Camlot\tAnd it just goes on and on—you can literally read that for half a page. But he’s using timestamps in relation to the text, which is also timestamped, but without the same precision. He’s using them to communicate either what’s not being said, or what’s being felt in the interim as he’s reading. He gives a sense of using the timestamp to capture the affect in the room and in the speaker, as that speech unfolds in time.\nAnd the timestamps, as they appear on that page, I would argue, represent a kind of poetics of the timestamp—one that aims to show how time is always subjectively relative. It depends a great deal on how one is experiencing a moment, a second, or whatever unit of time it may be.\n\n00:29:48\tJason Camlot\tI think it’s very important, as a sort of initial ethos or way of thinking going into timestamping, to remember that these are determinations. It’s a kind of determinate technique that we’re attempting to use to control time in certain ways. But the poetics—or aesthetic—of the timestamp, as I’m finding it in Jordan Abel’s work, reminds us of something very important. And that’s what Tanya opened with in this segment: the idea that timestamps can be off, and they can be off even when they’re on, in some ways. I guess that’s my point—yeah.\n00:30:30\tMike O’Driscoll\tMichael, you started this part of our conversation by asking what it was that got us to think a little more critically and carefully about the act of timestamping. And for me, that was very much part of it—the recognition that this was a constructed way of framing, accessing, and receiving durational media and its contents. That in the act of timestamping, as well as in the act of annotation, there is a whole series of historically, ideologically, and culturally bound presuppositions that we bring to that activity.\nAnd that is where the expressivity of the timestamp might lie: in the fact that we carry certain values and meanings into the production of timestamps and annotations. Those values and meanings shape the circulation and reception of the objects we subject to those practices.\n\n00:31:31\tJason Camlot\tI have a question for Tanya, actually—and it comes out of the project we’re working on right now, which involves attempting to crowdsource timestamps from people watching a video. It’s a great example of the unhinged timestamp, because we’re trying to bring in timestamps from Zoom and then figure out how to upload them and match them to the AV content.\nWhat I’ve realized as we go through this project is that so much of our work focuses on making sure that the comments—the annotations—are timestamped, that they’re actually linked up to the AV, right?\n\nI’d love to hear, or for all of us maybe to reflect on: what’s the difference in value between a timestamped annotation (which we almost use as one word sometimes) and just an annotation? Like, what if we didn’t timestamp any of our annotations for that event, and we just had this running text? The reader—or the listener—would then have to figure out what’s referring to what. You know?\n\n00:32:34\tTanya Clement\tYeah, no, I think—I mean, if you’re going to do that, then why even do them sequentially? Because I think even the act of having those annotations, the way you described it, gave me a visual of positioning them next to each other—almost like people are listening and looking at them side by side. But that’s also a form of timestamping, right? It’s not as precise, per se, but I think it’s a kind of conceptual timestamping that operates with broader parameters around time.\nFor example, I was timestamping an interview the other day—mostly just doing transcripts—but I had a range for a particular moment.\n\n00:33:25\tTanya Clement\tAnd it was interesting to me because I kept having to correct myself. I would say, Oh, this is wrong because the timestamp isn’t exactly right. But then I had to remember, as I was listening and then looking over at the timestamp, that I had used a range. So in fact, what the person was saying wasn’t outside the range—it wasn’t at the start time or the end time—it was somewhere in the middle.\nBut I kept having to remind myself: Oh, it’s not that exact number. The number kept making me think it had to be very precise, when in fact, it could be anywhere within that space. I’m always reminded of Gertrude Stein, right? As human beings, when we’re reading things or trying to understand them, we tend to put them into structures—and we rely on those structures to make sense of what’s happening. [Click-whirr]\n\n00:34:20\tSarah Freeman\tHere, Tanya introduces Gertrude Stein, a modernist writer who challenged linear narratives through her use of repetition. Tanya’s evocation of Stein invites us to consider how we impose order on information. Perhaps our uncritical encounters with timestamping reflect a broader tendency: our uncritical reliance on the formal structures of language itself.\n00:34:46\tTanya Clement\tSo I do think that just the simple act of placing notes—again, in my mind, it’s spatial—next to the screen where you see the video means that people are going to tend to read them sequentially, unless you intentionally mix it up. And if you tell them it’s mixed up, then that becomes a whole different experience. But if you don’t tell them it’s mixed up, they might feel confused—and I don’t know if that’s the intention.\nSo I think one’s intention, if you’re being inexact with timestamping, can be generative, but it can also be confusing. Because when people see timestamps, they tend to assume: this is what’s happening at that exact moment. Or if they see something in sequential order, they assume: this is what’s being talked about first, then this, then the next thing. So you’re still imposing a time-based order, I think.\n\n00:35:57\tMichael McKenzie\tYeah, that’s actually so great—it leads me right into the next question, which has to do with the idea of the audio object as a black box. Someone approaching it without something like timestamps won’t necessarily know what’s inside.\nMy question is about what timestamping does in this context: on one hand, it provides accessibility—it allows you to directly find what you need. But at the same time, some artists or performers might want to preserve a certain sense of enigma or opacity in their work. So timestamping can also risk disrupting that intentional ambiguity.\n\nWhat I’d like to do now is briefly check out a clip from Jackson Mac Low. I’ll share my screen so we can listen to it together—it’s one of the pieces we’ve timestamped. I’ll share my question with you right after we take a look. [Click-whirr]\n\nWarning: you might want to turn your volume down a little bit. [Click-whirr]\n\n00:37:04\tJackson Mac Low – Audio Clip\t[Overlapping, distorted voices]\n“…About—honestly, that… Alison Knowles, Carol… Dickens’ farm… Rose Jackson, Scott… take… Gotti? Haha… there’s something… dark—God? Song? Sing? Maybe that. Slide… please… I—I gotta eat… thank God now… guaranteed… body spa? Please…”\n\nNote: This segment contains heavily distorted and overlapping voices. The transcript reflects best approximations.\n\n00:38:30\tMichael McKenzie\tOK, so that was a clip from Jackson Mac Low’s Fifth Gatha, and I’ve got a few questions. What do timestamps do on a practical level for people using the audio in your practice? And what do you want to avoid with your timestamps in a recording like Mac Low’s, or something else you’ve encountered?\nWhat matters from a practical and theoretical perspective when you encounter a difficult piece like this? And specifically, what I mean by that is: when a piece appears to want to remain enigmatic or appear opaque—not necessarily easy to interpret—what happens when we include, inside our timestamps, descriptive words like inaudible or unintelligible? What does that do? How might that affect a reader or listener when the thing they’re listening to might have the express purpose of being noise, or of being inaudible on purpose?\n\nAnd so, have you thought about the intersection of those things? And also, more generally, have you run into difficult pieces like this that have really made you think about your practice?\n\n00:39:49\tJason Camlot\tSince this came from the Sir George Williams series, and I was there when this first transcription happened—this timestamp mentioned—I could give a little bit of background. And I think it’s a fascinating example for thinking about timestamping in the way we’ve been discussing it.\nFirst of all, how is this timestamped and annotated on the site where it appears? Essentially, there’s a timestamp before the performance of the Fifth Gatha, where Mac Low explains what they’re about to do. The transcript for that explanation is actually connected to a timestamp—so that’s at 01:06:11, where he says something like, I’ll do a piece called Fifth Gatha, and then he goes on to explain what’s about to happen.\n\nThen you have an annotation at 01:09:35, and it just says performs Fifth Gatha, right? And there’s nothing else there. But I’m looking at this, and I’m actually quite grateful that there are no annotations for the piece itself.\n\n00:40:54\tJason Camlot\tThe reason we didn’t include annotations to describe what was happening in the piece is that we had an approach for all the annotations: not to transcribe any of the poems themselves, so to speak—because we didn’t have the rights to them. Although that probably wouldn’t have applied in quite the same way to this particular work.\nSo, following that logic: at 01:09:35 it says performs Fifth Gatha, and then at 01:26:20 he starts talking again. So all we have is the time span during which that piece unfolded, and that’s the only annotation that exists in relation to that timestamp.\n\n00:41:34\tJason Camlot\tSo there’s not much there, other than the fact that a certain amount of time took place—or unfolded—when this particular piece was performed. The other thing I’d mention is that we approached it with the sense that transcribing it wouldn’t necessarily have been advisable anyway. Instead, we did a lot of contextual research around the event to try to understand what it was we were hearing.\nAnd that, probably, would be more interesting to actually include—because we learned quite a bit from conducting an oral history with two of the technicians who were there assisting Mac Low. They told us about the setup in the room: there were five reel-to-reel tape recorders that had been pieced together. I even saw the tech list that Mac Low had submitted, and that made all the technicians laugh when they were together in the room.\n\n00:42:21\tJason Camlot\tIt was like, there’s no way we’re getting him this stuff, you know? But they cobbled together a bunch of machines. This piece was performed in other places at other times, and he would play those performances while the one happening in the room was also being performed—and recorded by another machine, right?\nSo, essentially, to timestamp this would be extremely complex, because it’s an event unfolding in multiple places at the same time—in New York, and wherever else he was—as well as in the present moment. And then that tape would be brought to a future performance, and so on.\n\nSo, in this case, I think some explanation of the context of what we’re listening to would probably be even more useful than attempting a transcriptive annotation.\n\n00:43:15\tMike O’Driscoll\tThe gaffes are really important for Jackson, as I understand it, in part because they’re one of his many challenges to the centered, stable, egoic presence of the author in the production of the work. In particular, with these polyphonic pieces, he’s challenging notions of a monologic, expressive lyric subject and disrupting our presumptions about the authority that rests with that voice. And the gaffes do really interesting work in that regard.\nBut the other thing they do—and you could say this about a lot of Jackson’s work—is tied to its recursive nature. He’s working with computer technologies and other algorithmic systems to produce his work in the first place, and he’s drawing from discursive corpora of other authors. Gertrude Stein came up earlier in our conversation, and the Stein poems would be a really good example of that—but there are many others as well.\n\nOne of the things he’s doing is also challenging our notions of time. The linearity of the performance piece, its monologic subjectivity, and its stability—these are all things that he’s disrupting in a piece like The Gathas. And these, in turn, are the very presuppositions we often bring to the practice of timestamping.\n\nIn other words, in a very fundamental way, Jackson’s art forms challenge the basic suppositions we hold when we think about duration, performance, event, and subject. All of those things come under scrutiny—and all of them are disrupted in one way or another by his work. That’s why the limit case you shared with us is such a wonderful way to get us to rethink the fundamental ideas we bring to the activity of marking durational media.\n\n00:45:35\tMichael McKenzie\tYeah, that’s so great. OK, the next question has to do—and this might be interesting to you—with constrained vocabularies or standardized vocabularies that are used in style guides. What happens when the only option, for example, when someone is reading or performing something, is to choose the word perform—which is the case here at UVA?\nWhat goes into deciding on a standardized vocabulary or a reduced set of words that we’ll use when annotating or timestamping? What’s the thought process behind determining that perform is going to be the word we use, and not read?\n\n00:46:28\tTanya Clement\tYeah, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that, because I mean—it’s really the most difficult part. So for our project, we allow people to index the annotations, and that includes a tag. That tag allows you to group your annotations in particular ways, which then lets you access them according to those groupings later.\nSo, let’s say your annotations are transcripts, and you want to add speaker names as tags so you can see everywhere that a particular person has spoken across a project—because all of their annotations have been tagged with their name. The same could be true if, say, you were working within a particular theoretical perspective, and you had terms that might be adopted in the context of that theoretical positioning—you might want to tag a transcript based on those.\n\nI guess the short answer is: it depends on your theoretical perspective. It depends on what it is you’re trying to pull out or identify as significant in a particular recording. You don’t have to do transcripts at all, really. A lot of people tend to do them because they create better access for listeners or users. But I think the larger point is: it depends. It depends on what you’re trying to mark as significant.\n\n00:48:08\tJason Camlot\tTo build on what Tanya said—why reads versus performs—that’s an interesting question, right? The short answer is: it allows you to do things with larger amounts of data that you couldn’t do otherwise.\nSo, the very first thing we did with SpokenWeb in the first year—the first task force we struck—was our Metadata Task Force. That was in anticipation of having hundreds of hours of audio that we were planning to describe. We were imagining doing things with that material which, without some kind of controlled vocabulary and grammar for our schema, would have been much more difficult—especially if we wanted the recordings to teach us things about each other when placed in relation to one another.\n\nWhen I say it allows us to do things we couldn’t do otherwise, I mean we were looking at other existing schemas—their vocabularies and grammars—to ensure that, if we came across other collections that already had some metadata, we’d be able to bring it in, or ingest their metadata, more easily than if we didn’t have a shared structure.\n\nSo we wanted to make sure our terms were interoperable with other standardized languages or grammars. But we also wanted, as much as possible, to ensure that we were tagging, annotating, and describing individual recordings in a way that categorized them meaningfully.\n\n00:49:40\tJason Camlot\tSo that if we then faceted our larger dataset by a search term—like, say, poetry reading or radio broadcast—it would bring up all of the recordings, or as many as are appropriate to bring up under that category. It allows us to actually search a larger corpus of audio more effectively, and also to make connections across recordings in ways we might not have even thought of yet.\nFor example, if we’re interested in the distinction between performing versus reading, perhaps that becomes a useful search term for locating more experimental kinds of performance within the contents fields themselves—which one could do, if one wanted to, because that vocabulary was adhered to.\n\nSo the vocabularies can be useful, but they are all forms of abstraction—necessary forms of abstraction if you want to do this kind of more distant searching or reading of the contents. They’re useful in their own ways, but abstractions also do violence to the particulars of the events themselves. They’re not always accurate, or fully capable of capturing what’s actually unfolding—but they’re useful up to a point, depending on the goals one might have when working with these materials as data.\n\nAnd that’s the other thing that’s really happening in a lot of this work: we’re converting qualitative humanities content—speech, performance, sound of various kinds—into different forms of data, by using these controlled vocabularies.\n\n00:51:21\tMike O’Driscoll\tOne of the things I really love about these kinds of questions—and this is something that has become more and more apparent over time in working with archives of audio media in the context of SpokenWeb—is that every one of these practical questions actually has an incredibly rich intellectual, theoretical, and scholarly background. And that’s quite an amazing thing.\nSo I would say, for example, that the difference between performance and reading—if we designate the activity of a particular author on stage who’s been recorded as reading a work—for me, it connotes the idea that the literary audio performance is secondary to a print version of the text. That you are reading—that it’s derivative, right? That it follows from something else.\n\nWhereas the notion of performance, for me, carries the weight of the performative. In other words, it’s a constitutive medium of its own. A performance produces a text that is not secondary or derivative to the print version—it’s its own beast.\n\nAnd so, the language that we use to describe the work we’re doing in this regard can carry some pretty heavy connotations. But that only comes under scrutiny—only becomes a matter of discussion—when we sit down and deliberate: how do we describe these things? And what values does it carry to do it one way or another?\n\nThat’s the part that’s most exciting for me. Getting to the practicality of it—being able to produce constrained vocabularies to increase searchability, interoperability between different systems, and all of the things that go along with that—is really crucial.\n[Upbeat instrumental music starts playing] But the fun part is the conversation that gets you there.\n\n00:53:41\tSarah Freeman\tTimestamping doesn’t happen in a bubble. During our roundtable, timestamping took us through history—as we discussed, for instance, Gertrude Stein, medieval annals, Hayden White, Victorian periodicals, and Stonehenge. We reflected on the intricacies of the controlled vocabulary used in timestamping and its broader applications, from EKG machines to SETI protocols that extend far beyond literature.\nWe also explored what it means to timestamp a recording that resists singular meaning—such as Jackson Mac Low’s Fifth Gatha. Most of all, we learned that timestamping is far from a settled field. There is no objective or universal timestamp. Each one results from a series of subjective, contingent, and political decisions made by the time stamper.\n\nTimestamping is an invitation to intervene, to interpret, and—most of all—to create.\n\n00:54:49\tSarah Freeman\tThank you to our roundtable participants—Jason Camlot, Tanya Clement, and Michael O’Driscoll—for their insightful contributions to our discussion.\nFurther thanks to Michael O’Driscoll, Sean Lowe, and the SpokenWeb Podcast production team for their support in creating this episode.\n\nTechnical support was provided by the Digital Scholarship Centre at the University of Alberta.\n\nThis podcast was produced by Natasha D’Amours, Michael MacKenzie, Xuege Wu, and me, Sarah Freeman.\n\n00:55:41\tHannah McGregor\tYou’ve been listening to the SpokenWeb Podcast. The SpokenWeb Podcast is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from — and created using — Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada.\nThis month’s episode was produced by Natasha D’Amours, Michael McKenzie, Sarah Freeman, and Xuege Wu, and features the voices and smart ideas of Jason Camlot, Tanya Clement, and Mike O’Driscoll.\n\nThe SpokenWeb Podcast Team includes supervising producer Maia Harris, sound designer TJ McPherson, transcriber Yara Ajeeb, and co-hosts Katherine McLeod and me, Hannah McGregor.\n\nTo find out more about SpokenWeb, visit spokenweb.ca and subscribe to the SpokenWeb Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. If you love us, let us know — rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts, or say hi on our social media.\n\nPlus, check out our socials for info on upcoming listening parties and more. For now, thanks for listening."],"score":3.9476833},{"id":"9623","cataloger_name":["Gloriah,Onyango"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast S3E8, Academics on Air, 2 May 2022, Kroon, Beauchesne and Miya"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/academics-on-air/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast Season 3"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Ariel Kroon","Nick Beauchesne","Chelsea Miya"],"creator_names_search":["Ariel Kroon","Nick Beauchesne","Chelsea Miya"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Ariel Kroon\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Nick Beauchesne\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]},{\"url\":\"http://viaf.org/viaf/9162060349751401864\",\"name\":\"Chelsea Miya\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2022],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/4d8a0871-f27e-4d7f-825d-1b9962330239/audio/5c6123d8-1c4b-451b-941a-8b331156eb91/default_tc.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"swp-s3e8-academicsonair.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:50:55\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"48,954,349 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"swp-s3e8-academicsonair\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/academics-on-air/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2022-05-02\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10238561\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive, North West Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"\\t53.52682\",\"longitude\":\"-113.5244937350756\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive, North West Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"Sound FX/Music\\n\\nBBC Sound Effects. “Communications – Greenwich Time Signal, post January 1st 1972.” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07042099.\\n\\nBBC Sound Effects. “Doors: House – House Door: Interior, Larder, Open and Close.” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07027090.\\n\\nBBC Sound Effects. “Footsteps Down Metal Stairs – Footsteps Down Metal Stairs, Man, Slow, Departing.” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07037171.\\n\\nBBC Sound Effects. “Industry: Printing: Presses – Electric Printing Press operating.” BBC Sound Effects, https://sound-effects.bbcrewind.co.uk/search?q=07041078.\\n\\nBertrof. “Audio Cassette Tape Open Close Play Stop.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/s/351567/.\\n\\nConstructabeat. “Stop Start Tape. Player.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/constructabeat/sounds/258392/.\\n\\nCoral Island Studios. “28 Cardboard Box Open” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/Coral_Island_Studios/sounds/459436/.\\n\\nGis_sweden. “Electronic Minute No 97 – Multiple Atonal Melodies.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/429808/.\\n\\nGJOS. “PaperShuffling.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/GJOS/sounds/128847/.\\n\\nIESP. “Cage Rattling.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/IESP/sounds/339999/.\\n\\nInspectorJ. “Ambience, Children Playing, Distant, A.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/InspectorJ/sounds/398160/.\\n\\nJohntrap. “Tubes ooTi en Vrak.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/johntrap/sounds/528291/.\\n\\nKern PKL. “Limoncello.” Blue Dot Sessions, https://app.sessions.blue/browse/track/104864.\\n\\nKyles. “University Campus Downtown Distant Traffic and Nearby Students Hanging Out Spanish +Some People and Groups Walk by Steps Cusco, Peru, South America.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/kyles/sounds/413951/.\\n\\nLillehammer. “Arbinac.” Blue Dot Sessions, https://app.sessions.blue/album/9f32a891-6782-4a63-8796-cafa323b711e.\\n\\nMichaelvelo. “Packing Tape Pull.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/Michaelvelo/sounds/366836/.\\n\\nNix Nihil. “Vocal Windstorm.” Psyoptic Enterprises, 2016.\\n\\nOymaldonado. “70’s southern rock mix loop for movie.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/oymaldonado/sounds/507242/.\\n\\nPsyoptic. “Forest of Discovery.” Thought Music. Psyoptic Enterprises, 2006.\\n\\nSagetyrtle. “Cassette.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/sagetyrtle/sounds/40164/.\\n\\nSuso_Ramallo. “Binaural Catholic Gregorian Chant Mass Liturgy.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/people/Suso_Ramallo/sounds/320530/.\\n\\ntonywhitmore. “Opening Cardboard Box.” Freesound, https://freesound.org/s/110948/.\\n\\nZiegfeld Follies of 1921. “Second hand Rose” [restored version]. George Blood, LP. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/78_second-hand-rose_fanny-brice-grant-clarke-james-f-hanley_gbia0055858a/Second+Hand+Rose+-+Fanny+Brice+-+Grant+Clarke-restored.flac\\n\\n \\n\\nArchival Audio\\n\\nCarlin, George. “Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television.” Indecent Exposure. Little David Records, 1978.\\n\\n“Dorothy Livesay.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 8 Feb. 1984.\\n\\n“Douglas Barbour.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 10 Oct. 1983.\\n\\n“Margaret Atwood.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 12 Oct. 1983.\\n\\n“Marian Engel.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 18 Jan. 1984.\\n\\n“Linguistic Taboos and Censorship in Literature.” Voiceprint. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 8 April 1983.\\n\\n“Phyllis Webb.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 16 Nov. 1983.\\n\\n“Poetry: The Sullen Craft or Art.” Paper Tygers. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 1 Jan. 1982.\\n\\n“Robert Kroetsch.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 23 Nov. 1983.\\n\\n“Rudy Wiebe.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 21 March 1984.\\n\\n“Stephen Scobie.” Celebrations. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 26 Oct. 1983.\\n\\n“Women’s Language and Literature: A Voice and a Room of One’s Own.” Voiceprint. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 4 March 1981.\\n\\n“Speech and Its Characteristics.” Voiceprint. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 18 March 1981.\\n\\n \\n\\nWorks Cited\\n\\nThe Canadian Communications Foundation, https://broadcasting-history.com/in-depth/brief-history-educational-broadcasting-canada.\\n\\nBashwell, Peace. “Weird and Wonderful Scenes from the Bardfest.” The Gateway, November 10, 1981, pg. 13. Peel’s Prairie Provinces, http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/newspapers/GAT/1981/11/10/13/.\\n\\nThe Canadian Communications Foundation (CCF). “CKUA-AM.” History of Canadian Broadcasting, https://broadcasting-history.com/listing_and_histories/radio/ckua-am.\\n\\nFauteux, Brian. “The Canadian Campus Radio Sector Takes Shape.” Music in Range: The Culture of Canadian Campus Radio. Wilfrid Laurier University Press, 2015, pp. 37-64.\\n\\nKostash, Myrna. “Book View.” The Edmonton Journal, 17 Jan. 1981.\\n\\nKirkman, Jean. “CKUA: Fifty years of growth for the university’s own station.” University of Alberta Alumni Association: History Trails, March 1978, https://sites.ualberta.ca/ALUMNI/history/affiliate/78winCKUA.htm.\\n\\nRemington, Bob. “Banning of Radio Show Called Cowardly.” The Edmonton Journal, 26 May 1983.\\n\\n \\n\\nFurther Reading\\n\\nArmstrong, Robert. “History of Canadian Broadcasting Policy, 1968–1991.” Broadcasting Policy in Canada, Second Edition. University of Toronto Press, 2016, pp. 41-56.\\n\\nThe Canadian Communications Foundation (CCF). “A Brief History of Educational Broadcasting in Canada.” History of Canadian Broadcasting, https://broadcasting-history.com/in-depth/brief-history-educational-broadcasting-canada.\\n\\nDeshaye, Joel. The Metaphor of Celebrity : Canadian Poetry and the Public, 1955-1980. University of Toronto Press; 2013.\\n\\nGil, Alex. “The User, the Learner and the Machines We Make” [blog post]. Minimal Computing, 21 May 2015, https://go-dh.github.io/mincomp/thoughts/2015/05/21/user-vs-learner/.\\n\\nMacLennan, Anne F. “Canadian Community/Campus Radio: Struggling and Coping on the Cusp of Change.” Radio’s Second Century: Perspectives on the Past, Present and Future, edited by John Allen Hendricks, Rutgers University Press, 2020, pp. 193-206.\\n\\nRubin, Nick. “‘College Radio’: The Development of a Trope in US Student Broadcasting.” Interactions: Studies in Communication & Culture, vol. 6, no. 1, Mar. 2015, pp. 47–64.\\n\\nWalters, Marylu. CKUA: Radio Worth Fighting For. University of Alberta Press, 2002.\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549718302721,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:54.290Z","contents":["In the early 1980s, the University of Alberta funded a series of experimental literary radio programs, which were broadcast across the province on the CKUA community radio network. At the time, CKUA station had just been resurrected through a deal with ACCESS and was eager for educational programming. Enter host and producer Jars Balan – then a masters student in the English department with limited radio experience. For five years, Balan produced three radio series, Voiceprint, Celebrations, and Paper Tygers, which explored the intersection of language, literature, and culture, and he interviewed some of the biggest names in the Canadian literary scene, including Margaret Atwood, Maria Campbell, Robert Kroetsch, Robertson Davies, and many others.\n\nThis episode is framed as a “celebration” of those heady days of college radio in the early 80s. In it, clips from Jars’s radio programs, recovered from the University of Alberta Archives, supplement interviews with Balan and audio engineer Terri Wynnyk. Special tribute will be given to the recently departed Western Canadian poets Doug Barbour and Phyllis Webb through the inclusion of their in-studio performances recorded for Balan’s own Celebrations series. By looking back on the pioneering days of campus radio, this episode sheds light on the current moment in scholarly podcasting and how the genre is being resurrected and reimagined by a new generation of “academics on air.”\n\nSpecial thanks to Arianne Smith-Piquette from CKUA and Marissa Fraser from UAlberta’s Archives and Special Collections, and to SpokenWeb Alberta researcher Zachary Morrison, who worked behind the scenes on this episode.\n\n00:06\tSpokenWeb Podcast Theme Music:\t[Instrumental Overlapped With Feminine Voice] Can you hear me? I don’t know how much projection to do here.\n00:18\tHannah McGregor:\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive? Welcome to The SpokenWeb Podcast: Stories about how literature sounds. My name is Hannah McGregor, and each month I’ll be bringing you different stories of Canadian literary history, and our contemporary responses to it, created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada. \nVoiceprint. Celebrations. Paper Tygers. These are the names of three campus radio shows produced in the late 70s and early 80s at the University of Alberta, and broadcast province-wide. All three explored how literature, culture, and politics intersect: Voiceprint was the first and longest-running of the three, about poetics, speech, and communications theory; “Celebrations” celebrated the 75th anniversary of the University of Alberta in 1983; and “Paper Tygers” was about the practical ins-and-outs of being a writer. They were created by University of Alberta Masters student Jars Balan, and had production teams and guests that ranged from other students—like the show’s audio engineer and production assistant, Terri Wynnyck—to librarians, professors, and writers. \n\nIn today’s episode, SpokenWeb contributors Ariel Kroon, Nick Beauchesne, and Chelsea Miya celebrate and share the history of these three campus radio shows they found preserved in the University of Alberta archives. As Jars himself says in this episode, campus radio was an opportunity to share the kinds of thinking and conversations happening inside the university with those outside of it, too. But where were these campus radio shows produced, and how? What, exactly, were the circumstances of their creation? How were they received? And what echoes of campus radio do we hear in scholarly podcasting today? Featuring interviews with producer Jars Balan and audio engineer Terry Wynnyck, and archival audio of Western Canadian poets Doug Barbour and Phyllis Webb, Ariel, Nick, and Chelsea dive into the rich history of campus radio, from conception and script-writing to the physical cutting and editing of tape. \n\nWe invite you to listen to this episode with us and celebrate those early campus radio shows, and the people who made them. Here are Ariel Kroon, Nick Beauchesne, and Chelsea Miya with Episode 8 of our third season of the SpokenWeb Podcast: “Academics on Air”. [Music Interlude: SpokenWeb Podcast Theme Song]\n\n02:55\tJars Balan\tHello and welcome to “Celebrations”. [Trumpet Fanfare]\n03:33\tMichael O’Driscoll, Zoom, 21 June 2021:\tEvery great Spoken Web story starts with a box of something or other…\n03:37\tChelsea Miya:\tIt’s June, 2021. The Spoken Web Alberta team has gathered together over Zoom. We’re here to witness the unboxing of the archive. Michael O’Driscoll, director of Spoken Web U Alberta, is sitting next to a cardboard box.\n03:52\tMichael O’Driscoll, Zoom, 21 June 2021:\tI got these by the way, directly from Jars. I had to drive by his house and picked them up from his front porch and we had a nice socially distanced talk about things. I have been very well behaved. I haven’t even peeked. I have no idea. Ooh, what is in here? And they’ve been sitting here in my office next to me for a, for weeks now. And I, and I have resisted the urge to check.\n04:16\tAriel Kroon:\tThis is me Ariel.\n04:19\tChelsea Miya:\tAnd this is me Chelsea.\n04:21\tNick Beauchesne:\tThis is Nick reporting.\n04:23\tAriel Kroon:\tThe three of us are the producers of this SpokenWeb Podcast episode. We’re also researchers at the University of Alberta where we’ve been digitizing the “Voiceprint” series. Over hours of listening, we feel like we’ve gotten to know this forgotten campus radio show, and its host Jars, pretty well. We’re fans.\n04:41\tChelsea Miya, Zoom, [21 June 2021]:\tIt makes it feel more…\n04:45\tArielKroon, Zoom, [21 June 2021]:\tTangible?\n04:45\tChelsea Miya, Zoom, [21 June 2021]:\tTangible, yeah. And I think it’ll give us a sense of the amount of work but also that the chaos and energy that went into this. [Laughter]\n04:53\tAriel Kroon:\tMichael peels back the cardboard flaps and reaches inside [Sound Effect: Box Opening, Papers Shuffling] He pulls out a stack of tapes.\n04:58\tMichael O’Driscoll, Zoom, 21 June 2021:\tSo these are cassette recordings [Papers Shuffling] I would assume of some of the voice of nine different “Voiceprint” broadcasts, some of which we currently have a record of and some of which are entirely new.\n05:15\tAriel Kroon:\tHe also finds stacks of brown manila folders, which resemble case files. Scribbled across each folder is the name of a different episode. And they are stuffed with material.\n05:28\tMichael O’Driscoll, Zoom, 21 June 2021:\t[Papers Shuffling Throughout] So these are clearly the background research papers that were being used to develop ideas and the concepts for the different “Voiceprint” issues that Jars was developing at the time. So there’s a lot here in terms of the context for the developmental stuff, which I think is pretty interesting. Some library reference materials, some background on the history of the printed word, cognitive relations to the printed word. So, all kinds of interesting things, for sure. What else do we have in here? And some time codes for the materials that he was working with… a handwritten set of interview questions for Phyllis Webb [Unknown Voice: Oh that’s cool!] [Pause] –Wow.\n06:25\tAriel Kroon:\t[Start Music: Ambient Atmospheric Music] When we first stumbled upon this archive, or rather were handed it in a cardboard box, we thought the celebrity guests were the coup. We had hours of interviews and performances from Canadian literary stars like Phyllis Webb. These recordings hadn’t been played in decades and hardly anyone knew about their existence. But as we listened to the tapes, we realized that Jars, the host of the show, was himself a fascinating character. Rather than centring on the poets, our episode looks back on the heyday of campus radio culture… and tells the story of how students like Jars and radio aide Terri Wynnyck broke ground by experimenting with radio as a form of public scholarship. [End Music: Ambient Atmospheric Music]\n07:17\tChelsea Miya:\t[Audio Clip: Digital Musical Notes] [Audio Clip: Students Walking, Chatting] There are about 80 different college and university-affiliated campus radio stations across Canada. And each of these stations has their own unique story and history. CKUA radio is Canada’s first public broadcaster. [Start Music: Fanny Brice’s “Second Hand Rose”] It’s story begins on the University of Alberta campus in 1927. The school received a grant from the province to start its own radio station setting up shop in the Department of Extension.Over the next fifty years, CKUA became more than just a campus radio station. From the beginning, they experimented with new formats: radio dramas, square-dancing lessons, even an Alcoholics Anonymous program. The station broadcasts to remote areas, reaching everyone from farmers to fur trappers. But even as listenership expanded, CKUA still maintained close ties with the University. [End Music: Fanny Brice’s “Second Hand Rose”] Brian Fauteux, Professor of Music at UAlberta, explains…\n08:18\tAudio Recording, Brian Fauteux, Interview, [2 Feb 2022]:\tThe university still maintains a couple hours a week for programming, maintaining that sort of focus on radio talks and lectures as well as what they were calling good music, classical music often. This idea that they were uplifting listeners or passing on something that was the domain of the university. So it’s a very unique station in that sense. It’s sort of education as framed by showcasing arts and culture that maybe you wouldn’t hear on commercial radio.\n08:50\tChelsea Miya:\t[Start Music: Rock Music] Then the 70’s arrive. A time of self-expression and rebelling against the man. In Quebec and Alberta, separatism is in the air. The federal and provincial governments clash over broadcasting rights, and CKUA gets caught in the middle. [End Music: Rock Music] At this point, CKUA is operated by Alberta Telephones, which is illegal under federal rules. [Start Music: Instrumental] But just as things are looking dire, ACCESS, The Alberta Educational Communications Corporation, is created. Educational programs have special status under new broadcast regulations. And ACCESS offers CKUA a new license. And so the station was reborn. [End Music: Instrumental]\n09:39\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Sound Effect: Radio Signal Test Tone] CKUA was back on air and better than before! Originally, CKUA had only aired on AM frequencies, which transmit farther, but have poorer sound quality and are best suited for talk radio. [Start Music: Electronic Instrumental] Now, CKUA could broadcast with 100,000 watt transmitters, which were 200 times more powerful than what they had before, and the station aired on the higher bandwidth FM frequencies. With these new transmitters, everyone in Alberta could tune into their shows, and every note could be heard, clear and crisp. It was during this period of intense expansion and revitalization that Jars Balan joined the station. [End Music: Electronic Instrumental]\n10:25\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\tNow I did my undergraduate work uh in at the University of Toronto. I did an Honours BA in English Literature there. And my plan was to take two or three years off with a friend and fix up his van and drive to the West Coast, work at the sawmill, make a pile of money, go to Mexico, hang out, smoke a lot of pot, party, and then come back and enter an MA program. It all kind of fell through because when we got to BC the forestry industry was in the doldrums, there was no work and we came back here. I ended up working on a farm near the international airport. In the meantime I found out there were a couple of profs in the English department who are very sympatico to my literary interests: Stephen Scobie and Doug Barbour. So I met with them and I decided, well this a good place to do my MA. So I signed up for an MA in ‘77 and entered the MA program in English/Creative Writing.\n11:21\tAriel Kroon:\tThe Executive Producer of the University’s Department of Radio and Television was Roman Onifrijchuck.\n11:26\tArchival Recording, Jars Balan, Voiceprint, 4 Mar 1981:\tThe problem of sexist language is perhaps most frequently encountered by people working in the field of publishing.\n11:32\tArielle Kroon:\tAs it turned out, Jars and Roman were old friends. They had spent several summers working together as camp counselors at a Ukrainian summer camp.\n11:41\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\t[Sound Effect: Children Playing] It was kind of a bunch of us 60’s guys running a camp, a summer camp, the way we thought we should have gone to summer camp and never did at the, you know, it was pretty loosey goosey, but it was very successful and popular, but we became very good friends.\n11:55\tAriel Kroon:\tJars had just entered UAlberta’s masters program in English, when Roman approached him to ask if he had an idea for a show.\n12:02\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tThe whole purpose of CKUA was to produce programming that highlighted and showcased the work of scholars at the U of A. And so I sketched out this concept for a show called “Voiceprint”. Because I was trying to work towards a materialist approach to poetics [Start Music: Instrumental] by which I meant poetics based on a knowledge of linguistics, communications theory, nuts and bolts sort of use of language and communication strategy and how that can be translated into making poetry more effective. And so Voiceprint for me became that working document that enabled me to work out my theories. Roman liked the idea. They gave me 13 half-hour shows. We started with that in ’79 and that was considered successful. So I said, you know, I can do, I really could use an hour. And they agreed to that. And I fleshed it out into what then became 39 one hour shows in the Voiceprint series.\n13:09\tAriel Kroon:\tBefore he knew it, one show became three. Jars also hosted the “Celebrations” series, interviewing the university’s writers-in-residence, authors like Marian Engel and Margaret Atwood. [End Music: Instrumental]\n13:20\tArchival Audio, Jars Balan, 1983-84:\t[Sound Effect: Trumpet Fanfare] Our guest tonight is the novelist and short story writer Marian Engel… Robert Kroetsch… Margaret Atwood… Dorothy Livesay… poet Phyllis Webb…\n13:28\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tAnd so we took advantage of the fact that they were on campus in Edmonton for me to be able to interview them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel.\n13:37\tAriel Kroon:\tHis third radio show, “Paper Tygers”, was about the ins and outs of being a writer. For example, advice on how to find an agent and land a book deal.\n13:46\tArchival Audio, Jars Balan, [1 Jan. 1982]\t“Paper Tygers”, a program for creative and working writers.\n13:50\tAriel Kroon:\tWhile completing his masters, Jars was also producing these three radio shows. It was like having another full-time gig.\n13:57\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\tI was very lucky. I basically used the shows to pay for my education. I didn’t have to take any tutorials or anything like that. So I wasn’t beholden to my professors for any work. For me it was very important. I wanted to be independent. I was spared the agony of having to mark undergraduate papers which I hated to read and do even though I was an undergraduate once myself. By the time I finished my MA I was supporting myself freelance writing so – I was paid for the Voiceprint, they were $750 bucks a show and I got pretty good at turning out a show a week, which in those dollars was pretty good money and I was able to pay off my student debt and support myself.\n14:41\tAriel Kroon:\t“Voiceprint” was his biggest “hit.” The show was subtitled “Speech, language, communications technology, and the Literary Arts in a Changing World.”\n14:51\tArchival Audio, Jars Balan, [4 March 1981]\t[Digital Musical Notes] “Voiceprint”.\n14:54\tAriel Kroon:\tThe topic seemed to strike a chord with listeners, finding a wider audience outside of the university campus. “Voiceprint” ran for three years on CKUA’s Access Radio station. At its peak, it aired every week on Wednesdays at 7pm. This is prime-time for radio shows.Voiceprint earned a glowing review in the Edmonton Journal. The reviewer, quoting Roman, calls it “Sesame Street for adults.” Voiceprint invited the public to confront the ways in which language, politics, and culture intersect. This radio series was unafraid to tackle controversial subjects, such as the subtleties of sexism in language, with a nuanced, academic perspective. As the critic from the Edmonton Journal put it…\n15:35\tAudio Recording, Re-enactment of Edmonton Journal Review:\t[Sound Effect: Typewriter keys] These programs are most assuredly not straight lectures, not a solitary patrician male voice droning on into the fog of the airwaves. “Voiceprint” is, in the jargon of electronic media, a magazine show. The format is the montage: many voices, recurring theme segments, a bit of music, readings, interviews. Jars Balan, an Edmonton poet and editor, is the producer and host. He asks the questions we want to ask of linguists, anthropologists, doctors, classicists, writers…\n16:07\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\tWhen you think about it, the concept from the university’s view is a good one! All this work goes on at the university and if you’re not reading academic journals and you aren’t attending lectures, you don’t know what the hell these people are doing. And so this was an attempt to sort of get that out into a wider audience. You’d get somebody, I remember somebody saying, “so I caught your show was driving to Lethbridge from Calgary”… it obviously did reach an audience.\n16:33\tNick Beauchesne:\tJars was the host of “Voiceprint”. But the show was a collaborative effort. At least ten people worked on the production team. Some were students, like Jars. Others were UAlberta staff and professors, whom Jars recruited to produce special segments.\n16:48\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tI took advantage. There were people already involved in producing things in the Department of Radio and Television and I would use them for my program too for voices. So, Anna Altmann, who was a librarian, was somebody who was doing some other recording stuff and I said oh great, would you read these portions of the show, the scripted portions, and did various sound work, narrative work with us.\n17:13\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnna stood out to us, as listeners, because she speaks with a distinct affectation called “received pronunciation.” As heard in this clip, Anna hosted a bibliographic segment, where she would recommended “must-read” books about the different episode topics.\n17:31\tAudio Recording, Anna Altmann, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tIf you’d like to learn more about language and problem of sexism, probably the best place to begin reading is a very accessible book, titled Words and Women.\n17:41\tNick Beauchesne:\tIt turns out her mind was as noteworthy as her voice; she went on to become director of UAlberta’s School of Library and Information Science. And then there was Richard Braun who provided the definitions for some key words. Here he is discussing how sexism is ingrained in language.\n18:02\tArchival Record, Roman Onifrijchuck, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tLet’s look at those two words: male and female.\n18:03\tArchival Record, Richard Braun, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tMale, female. A very annoying thing that happens in English. An intentional misspelling, mispronunciation, to make it appear that “male” is the basic thing and upon it you add the meaningless “fe.”\n18:20\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tRichard Braun was an unusual character that I found in the classics department. He taught classics, but his real passion was etymology and he was great and he was quite eccentric, both looking and just in his manner. But he really enjoyed –I’d give him a list of words that I thought related to the theme of the show and he would look them up, the history of the word and whatever, and talk about it in a very engaging way. I wish I had a picture of him because he looked like a professor [Laughs]. Terri was the person probably I worked most closely with.\n18:57\tNick Beauchesne:\tTerri Wynnyk, the Production Assistant, was also a student at UAlberta, and the tech guru of the team.\n19:04\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\t[Audio of Tape Recording Stopping and Starting Throughout] I think I was the tech guru for Jars because Jars was so technically incompetent. Jars was always living in his head, and he couldn’t figure out how to use a tape recorder.\n19:17\tNick Beauchesne:\tShe remembers the day that she got recruited to work for the campus radio station.\n19:22\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tSo I was studying political science and economics at the University of Alberta. And and one of my sociology classes, the sociology of sex roles, I met this wild and crazy guy named Manfred Loucat who said, “Hey you’ve got to come and work at the university radio station. We’re just opening it up, we’re just opening it up, it’s been closed for a year, It’s been mothballed and we’re going to start it up.” So I ended up being the news director.\n19:49\tNick Beauchesne:\tAnd before she knew it, Terri got promoted.\n19:53\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tThis guy, this bear of a guy with a big beard and wild and crazy hair, cigarettes hanging out of his mouth named Roman Onufrijchuk, showed up one day at CJSR. And said, “Do you want a job? Would you like to freelance for me?” And I said, “Sure, what are you paying?”\n20:17\tNick Beauchesne:\tTerri and Jars worked on multiple shows, spending countless hours in the radio studio, which became like a second home.\n20:28\tChelsea Miya:\t[Sound Effect: Audio Crackling] Today’s podcasts can be recorded anywhere. The three of us who worked on this SpokenWeb episode live in different parts of the country: Kitchener, Calgary, and Kamloops. We worked on this show remotely, conducting interviews from home on Zoom. But in the past, campus radio was very much rooted in a specific sense of place. Jennifer Waits is a campus radio historian and a producer of the Radio Survivor podcast. Like Jars and Terri, Jennifer worked on a campus radio station in the early 80s. Only in her case, she was based at Haverford College outside Philadelphia. Her radio program had a smaller following than CKUA. It only aired during lunch-hour in the cafeteria hall. But she still remembers how excited she was, hearing her shows broadcast over the school speakers…\n21:18\tAudio Recording, Jennifer Waits, Interview, [3 Feb 2022]:\tSo I did college radio starting when I was a freshman in college and didn’t really pay any attention to college radio history at the time. But I think what happened was I must have come back to a reunion at some point and had heard sad tales about the radio station falling on hard times… like somebody sold off a bunch of the record collection that I remember being a part of lovingly kind of restoring service from major record labels when I was there in the 80s. And, and so I had this sadness about pieces of the history getting sold off and I think it’s at that point that I got really interested in digging into the history of the radio station. So I kind of embarked on this project and interviewed people from Haverford College’s radio past going as far as the 1940s.\n22:07\tChelsea Miya:\tSince then, Jennifer made it her quest to celebrate and preserve campus radio culture. She’s visited hundreds of stations across America, documenting their different stories. As Jennifer explains, the campus radio studio is a sacred space. It has its own distinct aura.\n22:25\tAudio Recording, Jennifer Waits, Interview, [3 Feb 2022]:\t[Start Music: Ambient Electronic] There’s often a community feeling at a college radio station, so you might have a couch that’s been there forever. Sometimes I’ve been warned to not sit on a particular couch because of nefarious things that might have happened on said couch. Often you’ve got layers of history on the walls of radio stations, so you might have stickers from bands and from other radio stations, you might have flyers from concerts that have happened or you know, material that has been sent in with records. So promotional items like glossy photos of bands and posters. So you’ll see stuff all over the walls, you’ll often see cabinets that have stickers all over them. What I love are just sort of funky pop culture artifacts. [Laughs] So there might be a troll doll in the record library or a lava lamp. I’ve seen skulls at a lot of radio stations, I don’t really know why. [End Music: Ambient Electronic]\n23:21\tChelsea Miya:\tLike Jennifer, Jars and Terri also spent a lot of time in their campus radio studio. And as they explained, the studio space became part of university lore.\n23:31\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tDid Jars tell you physically where we were located? The Department of Radio and Television was two floors below ground in the basement of the biological sciences building.\n23:40\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tWeIl it was a special place come to think of it because it was in the bowels of the biological sciences building and literally in the bowels, not in the basement, but in the second basement or sub basement. [Laughter] So you went right down to the bottom. And I mean, the building itself is this gargantuan building and you know, as all these biological specimens and in display cases on different floors.\n24:06\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tIt was a warren. It was a rabbit’s warren of offices in this nether world. [Sound Effect: Cages Rattle] We once found a boa constrictor that had escaped. Because up above us was all sorts of science labs and buildings and rabbits and cockroaches and we had so much wildlife [Sound Effect: Animal Noises] two floors below ground.\n24:32\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tPeople didn’t know about it. You would really have to know where – people were shocked when they learned about it. When we’d tell ’em to come and I’d have to have a map to explain to them how to get to the studios.\n24:43\tNick Beauchesne:\tWe asked Terri to elaborate on her duties as the resident tech guru and production assistant.\n24:49\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tJars, I think, would edit the programs and he designed them, but my job was to put them together. We had a Uher tape recorder which was rarely used–it was a small, portable recorder. We had a Nagra which is a Swiss built small recorder that took small reels, but it was portable so we could take that out into the field. And I have a really strong memory of going in the dead of winter with my arm in a cast and this heavy tape recorder trudging through the snow from the Biological Sciences building to the Humanities to interview Rudy Wieb and it took me forever to get there and get my parka off and get the reels done. Poor Rudy. But he was such a prince, such a king of a man, you know, he gave me this fantastic interview. And then he helped me pack up and he even zipped me up because I couldn’t zip myself up with my hand. That tape recorder provided the best recording. Then we had two Ampex decks, reel-to-reel decks. The Ampex were used for editing, so we would listen to the interview first once across, make our notes, and then begin editing out what we didn’t want. We would cut on the diagonal, a little metal bar, it had a slot in it for the tape and a sliced whole. And we would use clear splicing tape to put the ends together. [Sound Effect: Stretching Tape, Cutting Tape] And tape them across. And then we had two Revox reel-to-reel players that handled the large ten-inch reels, and we used them for mastering. So once we had our show complete and edited, we would record the master tape from one deck to the other. The problem with the Revoxes were they had light-sensitive heads. So, if a splice was not very well done and you had a gap and the light came through and hit the head that was playing back, the playback head, it would stop, but only the take up reel would stop, not the letting-down reel. So you get this dump of tape. You just sit and babysit those.\n27:40\tNick Beauchesne:\tToday, podcast producers have access to online sound libraries with countless sound effects available at the click of a mouse. But in the heyday of alternative radio, sound design was done by hand. Campus radio producers like Jars and Terri would have to create sound effects themselves in the studio or track down physical recordings and transfer them from a record onto reel-to-reel tapes. The magnetic tape could then be sliced by hand into samples and remixed. We asked Jars and Terry about the eclectic musical stings and sound effects samples used in “Voiceprint”, “Celebrations”, and “Paper Tygers”.\n28:20\tArchival audio, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\t[Electronic sound effects]\n28:26\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, 4 Jan 2022]:\tThe sounds we used for the different subheadings of the show, were a collective effort. Some of them were my ideas. I’d go looking for something that I thought would work well there. Roman Onofrijchuk was very good, I think Terri helped out. We decided early on with “Voiceprint” [Music: Funky Electronic Reverberation] it was a funky, technical thing that we were doing to go with the sound effects for that. “Celebrations” was just my choice. I thought, well, okay, so it’s called Celebrations.\n28:49\tArchival audio, “Celebrations” Intro Music, 1983:\t[Trumpet Fanfare]\n28:50\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tA fanfare was perfect, that brassy upbeat. I was a member of the Edmonton public library and you could take out records and so I took a whole bunch of classical records that I thought I might find something on and found that particular fanfare which is identified at the end of the show. It was a combination of talents, I guess, that came in to contribute towards it.\n29:24\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tWe listened to different programming on BBC and NPR. We had a library of albums [Sound: Flipping Through Tapes] at radio and TV and of course I had I sort of had access to the stuff over at CJSR, as well. We had things like tubular bells [Bells Chime]. For “Sacred Circle”, I think we had a lot of really mystical and choral music [Choral Singing].\n29:54\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Choral Singing Continues] “Sacred Circle”, by the way, is another UAlberta radio show that Terri worked on. But that is a story for another podcast episode, another paper.\n30:04\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tAnd something would come up from the stuff that was being done at Convocation Hall because, although often they performed –my favourites were the old classics they also performed new music. And new music is very exciting because it could be atonal, [Music: Atonal Sounds] it can be twelve-tone. [Music: Twelve-Tone Sounds] We had a few sound effects albums because now you can get anything you want from the internet. But we actually had a couple of records where you that you could queue up. We got a lot of that. We nearly wore those sound effects albums out using them for every kind of sound we needed. [Music Fades]\n30:55\tNick Beauchesne:\tThese sound effects tapes are probably still gathering dust in the University of Alberta archives. The library’s inventory includes cassettes from 1979, with labels like “English meadow, night in the country,” “ultimate thunderstorm,” and “shell and gun fire.” The experimental sound design of late 1970s campus radio programs also coincides with the rise of the Canadian avant-garde sound poetry scene. The literary guests that Jars invited on air brought their own unique flavours to the show. For instance, as part of the “Celebrations” series, Jars interviewed poets Stephen Scobie and Douglas Barbour. At the time, Scobie and Barbour were both professors in the English Department. They performed poetry on campus under the shared stage name “Re:Sounding.” And their live shows had quite the reputation. A reviewer for The Gateway student paper describes Scobie and Barbour’s spoken word shows as “unforgettable madness.” The following is my dramatic re-enactment of the performance review:\n32:06\tAudio Recording, Re-enactmnet of The Gateway \t[Sound Effect: Typewriter Clacking] These two English professors think and act primal barbarism (pun intended)… I looked out accompanied by the sound of explosive static in the speakers to find Barbour hopping from one box to another repeatedly yelling something like “B-Bible dible-u,” while Scobie made a long spitting hiss into the microphone… this atavism went on for ten minutes. I was amazed at their vocal stamina… a crude finale to what had been for the most part a tasteful evening.\n32:38\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Sound Effect: Recording Buzz] Here’s a clip from their performance of their poem “What the One Voice” recorded live-in-studio for the “Celebrations” program in 1985.\n32:50\tArchival audio, “What the One Voice,” Stephen Scobie and Douglas Barbour, Re:Sounding, 1983:\t\n[Overlapping Voices] What the one voice affirms the other denies. What the one voice conceals, the other displays. When the one voice says yes the other says no. When the one voice is silent, the other voice cries. What the one voice believes, the other voice doubts. [Repetition, Voices Diverging and Swapping Lines] The voice of the left mind, the voice of the right. The voice of the right mind, the voice of the left. [Repetition, Volume Increasing and Then Dropping to Whispers]\n33:58\tNick Beauchesne:\tWhen we first heard this clip, Chelsea, Ariel and I wondered if Jars had attended Barbour’s live poetry reading series, hosted in the English Department. His answer caught us by surprise!\n34:10\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [28 Mar 2022]:\tI not only watched them perform. I performed at events with them.\n34:14\tNick Beauchesne:\tJars had created a collection of sound poems for his thesis project. Scobie and Barbour were his supervisors. Under their tutelage, he rubbed shoulders with the rock stars of the Canadian sound poetry scene. Jars remembers taking the stage with the Four Horsemen, fronted by bpNichol and Steve McCaffery, who were like the Pink Floyd of avant garde poetry. Jars had invited his family to the event.\n34:40\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 Mar 2021]:\tAll these Ukrainians came, my grandmother among them. And I mean they sat there with their jaws on the floor. [Laughs]They thought these people are crazy! Making these sounds and jumping around on stage and everything like that. Sound poetry explores that area between music vocalizations and literature. I’m interested in these gray areas, I guess, which may be the best way to put it.\n35:06\tNick Beauchesne:\tOne of the great achievements of the “Celebrations” series is a very personal touch to discussing individual authors and poets, their works and their lives – especially as more time passes, and more and more of these people are leaving this world. They leave behind a special “voice print” in the form of Jars’s “Celebrations”. The “Re:Sounding” clip hits that much harder, knowing of Douglas Barbour’s passing in 2021, just a few months before this podcast episode was produced. Another clip from the CKUA archive that touched us was a reading of “Stellar Rhyme,” a poem by the great Phyllis Webb, who also passed in the year 2021.\n35:52\tArchival audio, “Stellar Rhyme,” Phyllis Webb, “Celebrations”, 1983: \t\n[Page Flipping] A ball star, tiny columns and plates falling from very cold air, a quick curve into sky. My surprised winter breath, a snowflake caught midway in your throat.\n36:15\tAriel Kroon:\tJars was also a talented interviewer, and he had a special knack for getting the guests on his shows to open up. He explains that he realized early on that being interviewed for a radio show, even a lesser-known campus show with a studio in the biology basement, could be intimidating. Once he placed a microphone in someone’s face and did a sound check, people would freeze up. So, he took a different approach.\n36:38\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tOne of the things I learned was how to ease them into the interviews. I would meet them when they came in and help them take off their coat and start chatting with them and stuff. We’d sit down, and I’d click on the microphones. And we’d just keep talking about this, that. You know, their time at the university. General stuff. Get them comfortable talking. And I’d just ask, “So tell me how did you get interested in psycholinguistics?” A light would come on in their heads saying, like, oh wow, the interview has begun! And it made it much more smooth.\n37:04\tAriel Kroon:\tOne of Jars’ most memorable guests was poet Ann Cameron. He interviewed Cameron for an episode of Voiceprint called “Women’s Language and Literature: a Voice and a Room of One’s Own.” Only a few clips made it into the final episode. But the raw interview file is riveting. They talked for almost an hour. We were captivated by her candid discussion of everything from sexism to motherhood to her contempt for the label of “poetess.”\n37:32\tArchival audio, Jars Balan, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tDo you object to being identified as a woman writer?\n37:37\tArchival audio, Ann Cameron, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tNo, I am a woman, and I am a writer.\n37:40\tArchival audio, Jars Balan, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tYou don’t mind having… I mean there are a lot of people who…\n37:43\tArchival audio, Ann Cameron, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tI object to being referred to as a “poetess.”\n37:46\tArchival audio, Jars Balan, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tMm-hmm\n37:47\tArchival audio, Ann Cameron, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tSomehow a poet, semantically or whatever, a poet has has dignity and pride and has an ability to use words and move people, and a poetess is hung on a hook of iambic pentameter and nobody bothers [Laughs].\n38:12\tArchival audio, Jars Balan, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tWell, it’s the ending is a… the suffix is a… has a diminutive, derivative quality to it.\n38:21\tArchival audio, Ann Cameron, “Voiceprint”, 1981:\tIt…what does really piss me off is when someone comes up and says, “Oh, I read the thing you wrote. My, you write just like a man!” And I used to choke, just choke! And now, I smile demurely and say, “Oh shit, I hope not!” [Laughs].\n38:45\tAriel Kroon:\tThe campus radio shows in the University of Alberta archive are full of gems like these, from Canadian authors who often engage with Jars on a deeply personal level, sharing stories about their work and their lives. These audio artifacts transport us back to a particular moment in the history of Canadian literature, and also a particular moment in the history of alternative radio.\n39:13\tArchival audio, “Voiceprint”, 1983:\t[Sound Effect: Warning Tone] [Announcer Voice] Warning. The following program candidly examples the subject of pornography, censorship, and linguistic taboos. Listener discretion is advised.\n39:23\tArchival audio, Jars Balan,“Voiceprint”, 1983:\tMy name is Jars Balan. And tonight I’ll be exploring the delicate issue of profanity in language and literature. Our guests include several people fascinated by four-letter words, including comedian George Carlin.\n39:36\tChelsea Miya:\tThe final episode of Voiceprint never made it to air. The subject of the episode was “Linguistic Taboos and Censorship”. Ironically, this episode about censorship was what got the show kicked off CKUA. Jars had included a clip from comedian George Carlin’s infamous monologue. You might have heard it. It’s about the “seven words you can’t use in television.”\n39:58\tArchival Audio, \nGeorge Carlin, “Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television,” 1978: \n\nArchival audio, George Carlin, “Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television,” 1978: Bad words! That’s what they told us they were, remember? That’s a bad word! You know: bad words, bad thoughts, bad intentions… and words! You know the seven, don’t you? That you can’t say on television: Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits. Huh? [Audience Laughter, Applause].\n40:26\tChelsea Miya:\tFor the ACCESS-run CKUA station, remember this is the ACCESS that emphasized “educational programming,” airing the Carlin clip crossed a line. They said Jars had “contravened the station’s policy on obscene language.” The Edmonton Journal criticized CKUA for being “too sensitive” about the whole issue. In the editor’s view, the “program in question was a sober academic discussion.” Jars himself is quoted in the article. And he laments the decision as “truly unfortunate.” “Voiceprint” was, he says, “serious radio” and they’d been “castrated!” Again, Jars’s words, not mine. [Sound Effect: Electronic Beeping]. And so… Voiceprint came to an end. Until, that is, it was rediscovered, four decades later, by the SpokenWeb research team. [Boxes Opening] With a little help from Jars..\n41:22\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\tWell I think I got about two bankers boxes’ worth of stuff. Because I’ve got stuff in the shed and I’ve got stuff here. So, I could bring this to campus. [Tape Recording Starting]\n41:32\tAriel Kroon:\tJars gave us additional recordings of “Voiceprint”, and folders upon folders of handwritten production notes. Sifting through this material, we were amazed at the sheer amount of work each participant put into producing these shows, often without knowing who (if anyone) would be listening. Nowadays, the lived reality of campus radio from 40 years ago seems so foreign to those of us working on podcasts. For example, we are able to access listener metrics with the click of a mouse through podcasting hosting platforms, and insert audio very easily without having to cut up the physical recording media.\n42:09\tAudio Recording, Stacey Copeland, Interview, [2 Feb 2022]:\tWe often hear [Laughs] all the different terms like “knowledge mobilization,” getting thrown around as really important. Well, what does that actually look like? If we’re thinking about those kinds of aspects of projects being important, we need to start seriously thinking about how we can change our research into more publicly accessible work.\n42:29\tAriel Kroon:\tThis is Stacey Copeland, one of the producers of the Amplify Podcast Network. One of the Amplify Podcast Network’s goals is to have podcasting recognized by academic institutes as legitimate scholarly work.\n42:43\tAudio Recording, Stacey Copeland, Interview, [2 Feb 2022]:\tWhat Amplify is interested in doing is not only bringing scholarly podcasts to light, but thinking about how to make them count as scholarship in more formal ways as well through peer review. So, thinking about the podcast equivalent to a manuscript.\n43:01\tAriel Kroon:\t[Sound Effect: Printing Press Mechanizations] The printed journal or book has long been held up as the gold standard of academic research, how a scholar measured the impact of their research. But these traditional forms of scholarly production can be alienating. As academics, we’re removed from the process of “making knowledge” in a material, hands-on way. Much like Jars and Terri did with campus radio shows like “Celebrations” and “Voiceprint”, today scholars are using podcasting to reconnect with their research and, at the same time, find an audience outside of academia.\n43:35\tAudio Recording, Stacey Copeland, Interview, [2 Feb 2022]:\tFor me it often means learning how to better articulate my research, in general. If you can’t talk about your research with your grandma [Laughs] then you really need to start rethinking what your scholarship’s bringing to the world and what it’s actually contributing beyond your specific discipline. And, when you start to engage in something like making a podcast, it brings up a lot of those bigger conversations and bigger questions.\n44:03\tAriel Kroon:\tIn addition to her work with the Amplify Podcast Network, Stacey researches the history of queer and feminist radio. She points out how campus and community radio in the 70s and 80s pushed back against the mainstream. In this sense, shows like Voiceprint paved the way for podcasts, as a more experimental alternative to major public and commercial broadcasters.\n44:25\tAudio Recording, Stacey Copeland, Interview, [2 Feb 2022]:\tWhen we’re looking at pre-Internet era, community radio and campus radio in particular played a huge role in creating any sort of space for community and any sort of political discussion that didn’t fit CBC or private commercial radio. So, spaces to have those more local-oriented conversations and also conversations around queer act activism, around racial activism, and politics and movements across different decades in Canada that just didn’t get the airtime on, say, a CBC. And when the Internet didn’t exist, these were the only spaces we could have those conversations.\n45:06\tNick Beauchesne:\t[Start Music: Ambient Music] Jars did not win his battle with ACCESS, and “Voiceprint” was ultimately banned. But he has no regrets. As Jars himself put it, the show “concluded with an exclamation point, which wasn’t necessarily a bad way to go out.” Through ups and downs, highs and lows, Jars still cherishes the memories of his time as a campus radio host. [End Music: Ambient Music]\n45:30\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tRadio is no longer the same thing that it was when these shows were produced. When I think back on the way we edited with a razor blade and tape to do the splicing and how now all of that just done with dials, digitally and you don’t have a tape even is a world of difference. And I enjoyed the tactile thing of of doing the cuts. And I got good at it.\n45:54\tNick Beauchesne:\tFor Jars, campus radio is a chance for academics to connect with the public in a meaningful way, to lend voice to larger social and political conversations which affect us all.\n46:06\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [4 Jan 2022]:\tOne of the things that’s changed about the university is that in an attempt to combat this image of being an ivory tower, academics now realize it’s important to reach out into a wider audience. That if society is going to support universities financially, morally, politically, they need to be able to show the worth of the learning that goes on at the university. And so sharing that knowledge, sharing that experience is very important. And I think more scholars realize that.\n46:35\tNick Beauchesne:\tAfter graduating from UAlberta, Jars continued to write and perform sound poetry. He also went on to teach remote learning courses in Australia. This was before the internet, so Jars would record his lectures on tape, and those tapes would then be mailed to students. To his surprise, being a distance educator was a lot like being a radio host.\n46:59\tAudio Recording, Jars Balan, Interview, [24 May 2021]:\tThe fact that I had to record these in a studio and sit for three hours, they are three-hour lectures, it really helped the fact that I was used to sitting in front of a microphone in a studio [Sound Effect: Recording Sounds] , and I could hold forth. I just make notes, spread them out on the thing, and talk.\n47:15\tNick Beauchesne:\tJars later returned to the University of Alberta where he was hired by the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies.\n47:22\tChelsea Miya:\tAs for Terri, she made the leap from radio to film, devoting her life to telling stories about social justice, women’s rights, and the arts.\n47:31\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\tAfter I left radio, I became a documentary filmmaker and I’ve spent my entire career doing that. But I did love radio first and foremost: that was my passion, my heart.\n47:43\tChelsea Miya:\tWe asked Terri if she had any advice for the next generation of aspiring academic podcast.\n47:50\tAudio Recording, Terri Wynnyk, Interview, [7 Jan 2022]:\t[Start Music: “Limoncello” by Kern PKL] Voiceprint was fun! Voiceprint was so rigorous. The first thing I would pass on is: listen to people, and listen with an open mind. Don’t bring your prejudices to what you’re listening to. Listen with an open mind. And I would say, always speak. Always speak your truth. Be respectful when you speak it, but speak so that you can articulate yourself. Speak so that you can make yourself understood. Speak so that you can express your frustrations in a way that are respected, speak so that you’re not just a dumb human being on this planet, but you contribute to the rest of society. [End Music: “Limoncello” by Kern PKL]\n49:02\tAriel Kroon:\t[Music Starts: “Celebrations” Fanfare] With that, we conclude this brief profile from the campus radio history archives at the University of Alberta. We’d like to thank Arianne Smith-Piquette from CKUA and Marissa Fraser from UAlberta’s Archives and Special Collections. We’d also like to give a special shout out to SpokenWeb Alberta researcher Zachary Morrisson, who worked behind the scenes on this episode. All works cited and contributors can be found in the show notes for this episode. This is myself, Ariel Kroon, on behalf of my colleagues Chelsea Miya, and Nick Beauchesne, bidding you a pleasant good evening. [End Music: “Celebrations” Fanfare]\n49:50\tHannah McGregor:\t[Start Music: SpokenWeb Theme Music] SpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from (and created using) Canadian Literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. Our producers this month are SpokenWeb contributors Ariel Kroon, Nick Beauchesne, and Chelsea Miya of the University of Alberta. Our podcast project manager and supervising producer is Judith Burr—and next month, this position will be taken over by our new supervising producer, Kate Moffatt. Our episodes are transcribed by Kelly Cubbon. To find out more about Spokenweb visit: spokenweb.ca and subscribe to The Spokenweb Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you may listen. If you love us, let us know! Rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or say hi on our social media @SpokenWebCanada. Stay tuned to your podcast feed later this month for ShortCuts with Katherine McLeod, mini stories about how literature sounds. 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Additional score sampled from performances by Davis and Kate Sicchio.\\n\\nDavis, Kevin William. “Elegia.” On Remembrance. Created with the Murmurator software in collaboration with Eli Stine. SoundCloud audio, 5:25, 2020, https://soundcloud.com/kevinwdavis/elegia.\\n\\nDavis, Kevin William. “From “From ‘David’”” From Three PFR-3 Poems by Jackon Mac Low for percussion quartet and speaker; performance by UVA percussion quartet. SoundCloud audio, 4:13, 2017, https://soundcloud.com/kevinwdavis/from-from-david.\\n\\nPixabay. “Crane load at construction site.” Pixabay, https://pixabay.com/sound-effects/crane-load-at-construction-site-57551/.\\n\\nSherfey, John, and Congregation. “Nothing but the Blood.” Powerhouse for God (CD SFS60006), Smithsonian Folkways Special Series, 2014. Recorded by Jeff Titon and Ken George. Reproduced with permission of Jeff Titon.\\n\\nSicchio, Kate. “Amelia and the Machine.” Dancer Amelia Virtue. Robotics: Patrick Martin, Charles Dietzel, Alicia Olivo. Music: Melody Loveless, Kate Sicchio. Vimeo, uploaded by Kate Sicchio, 2022, https://vimeo.com/678480077.\\n\\nARCHIVAL AUDIO & INTERVIEWS\\n\\nAltmann, Anna. “Popular Poetics” [segment]. “Printing and Poetry in the Computer Era.” Voiceprint. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 20 May 1981.\\n\\nDavis, Kevin William. Interviewed by Chelsea Miya for The SpokenWeb Podcast. 25 Oct. 2022.\\n\\nJackson, Mac Low. “A Vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin.” Performed by Susan Musgrave, George Macbeth, Sean O’Huigin, bpNichol, and Jackson Mac Low, 1974. PennSound, http://media.sas.upenn.edu/pennsound/authors/Mac-Low/CDs/Doings/Mac-Low-Jackson_09_Vocabulary-for-Mattlin_Doings_1982.mp3.\\n\\nO’Driscoll, Michael. Interviewed by Chelsea Miya for The SpokenWeb Podcast. 23 Aug. 2022.\\n\\nOnufrijchuk, Roman. Performing “Tape Mark I,” a computer poem by Nanni Balestrini. “Printing and Poetry in the Computer Era.” Voiceprint. Dept. of Radio and Television and CKUA, 20 May 1981.\\n\\nSicchio, Kate. Interviewed by Chelsea Miya for The SpokenWeb Podcast. 4 Nov. 2023.\\n\\nWORKS CITED\\n\\nBalestrini, Nanni. “Tape Mark I.” Translated by Edwin Morgan. Cybernetic Serendipity: the Computer and the Arts. Studio International, 1968.\\n\\nDavis, Kevin William. From “From ‘David’” [score]. 2017. http://kevindavismusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/From-From-David.pdf.\\n\\nDean, R. T., and Alex McLean, eds. The Oxford Handbook of Algorithmic Music. Oxford University Press, 2018.\\n\\nHiggins, Hannah. Fluxus Experience. University of California Press, 2002.\\n\\nMac Low, Jackson. Vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin. Instructions. 23 January 1974. Mimegraphed sheet, 28 x 22 cm. Bonotto Collection, 1.c, Fondazione Bonotto, Colceresa (VI), Italy. https://www.fondazionebonotto.org/en/collection/poetry/maclowjackson/4/3091.html.\\n\\nMac Low, Jackson. Vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin. Instructions. 19 September 1974. Mimegraphed sheet, 28 x 22 cm. Bonotto Collection, 1.d, Fondazione Bonotto, Colceresa (VI), Italy. https://www.fondazionebonotto.org/en/collection/poetry/maclowjackson/4/3091.html.\\n\\nJohnston, David Jhave. “1969: Jackson Mac Low: PFR-3” [blogpost] Digital Poetics Prehistoric. https://glia.ca/conu/digitalPoetics/prehistoric-blog/2008/08/26/1969-jackson-mac-low-pfr-3-poems/.\\n\\nMac Low, Jackson. A Vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin. 1973. Ruth and Marvin Sackner Archive of Concrete and Visual Poetry, University of Iowa Libraries, Iowa City, CC-47567-68576.\\n\\nMac Low, Jackson. Thing of Beauty, edited by Anne Tardos. University of California Press, 2008. https://doi-org.libaccess.lib.mcmaster.ca/10.1525/9780520933293.\\n\\nO’Driscoll, Michael. “By the Numbers: Jackson Mac Low’s Light Poems and Algorithmic Digraphism.” Time in Time: Short Poems, Long Poems, and the Rhetoric of North American Avant-Gardism, 1963-2008, edited by J. Mark Smith. McGill-Queens University Press, 2013, pp. 109-131.\\n\\nRusso, Emiliano, Gabriele Zaverio and Vittorio Bellanich. “TAPE MARK 1 by Nanni Balestrini: Research and Historical Reconstruction.” The ZKM | Center for Art and Media Karlsruhe, June 2017. https://zkm.de/en/tape-mark-1-by-nanni-balestrini-research-and-historical-reconstruction.\\n\\nStine, Eli, and Kevin William Davis. “The Murmurator: A Flocking Simulation-Driven Multi-Channel Software Instrument for Collaborative Improvisation.” International Computer Music Conference (ICMC), 2018. https://elistine.com/writing-blog/2018/4/14/the-murmurator.\\n\\nFURTHER READING / LISTENING\\n\\nHiggins, Hannah, and Douglas Kahn, eds. Mainframe Experimentalism: Early Computing and the Foundations of the Digital Arts. University of California Press, 2012, https://doi.org/10.1525/9780520953734.\\n\\nNoll, Michael. “Early Digital Computer Art at Bell Telephone Laboratories, Incorporated,” LEONARDO, vol. 49, no. 1, 2016, pp. 55-65.\\n\\nReichardt, Jasia, ed. Cybernetic Serendipity. 1968. 2nd edition. Studio International, 1968.\\n\\nRockman, A, and L. Mezei. “The Electronic Computer as an Artist.” Canadian Art, vol. 11, 1964, pp. 365–67.\\n\\n\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549758148608,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:54.290Z","contents":["How can artists harness algorithmic processes to generate poetry, music, and dance? And what can we learn from the longer history of creative coding and early experiments in human-computer collaboration?\n\nIn this live episode recorded during June’s 2024 SpokenWeb Symposium, producers Nicholas Beauchesne and Chelsea Miya venture into the roots and future directions of algorithmic art.\n\nThank you to interviewees Michael O’Driscoll, Kevin William Davis, and Kate Sicchio, as well as the live studio audience.\n\n00:04\tSpokenWeb Podcast Intro\t[Instrumental music overlapped with feminine voice]\nCan you hear me? I don’t know how much projection to do here.\n00:17\tMaia Harris:\tWhat does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive?\nWelcome to the SpokenWeb podcast, stories about how literature sounds.\n00:31\tMaia Harris:\tMy name is Maia Harris, subbing in for our usual hosts for a very special edition of the SpokenWeb podcast, recorded live at the 2024 SpokenWeb symposium here on Treaty Seven Land.\nEach month, we bring you different stories of Canadian literary history and our contemporary responses to it created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada.\nHow can artists harness algorithmic processes to generate poetry, music, and dance? And what can we learn from the longer history of creative coding and early experiments in human-computer collaboration?\nIn this episode of the SpokenWeb podcast, we will venture into the roots and future directions of algorithmic art.\n01:18\tChelsea Miya:\tThanks, Maia. Hi everyone. I am Chelsea Miya.\n01:22\tNicholas Beauchesne:\tAnd I’m Nick Beauchesne. And this is our live studio audience. . .\n01:28\tLive Studio Audience:\t[Cheers and applause]\n01:36\tChelsea Miya:\t[Beat music plays and fades]\nThanks to the “algos,” or algorithms, used in social media to curate content and drive engagements. Most people have at least heard the term, even if they have little understanding of what it means.\nThe concept of an “algorithm” predates computers, originating back in the ninth century. An “algorithm” is understood to mean a set of rules for executing a particular task or a set of operations. You can create an algorithm for getting ready in the morning, baking a cake, or driving to work. As we’ll see later in the episode, algorithms can even be used to generate poetry, compose music and choreograph dances.\n02:14\tNicholas Beauchesne:\tThe clip you’re about to hear is from the University of Alberta campus radio show “Voice Print.” You can learn more about the series and its early contributions to experimental literary radio on the SpokenWeb podcast episode: “Academics on Air.”\nThis particular voice-print episode was themed “Printing and Poetry in the Computing Era,” and it aired in 1981. The archival recording anticipated the hopes and fears for automated computer-generated art that, in some ways, have come to be realized in the present.\n02:45\tAudio from the “Popular Poetics” segment of The Voiceprint episode “Printing And Poetry In The Computer Era,” 20 May 1981; Read By Anna Altmann.\tAlthough documentation is lacking, it is probable that computer poetry was invented simultaneously at various locations in the 1950s by engineers occupied in such language tasks as mechanical translation during the 1960s. However, these developments came to the attention of poets and literary scholars, who then began to explore the literary possibilities of computer technology.\nAlthough somewhat disturbed by the implications of such activity, these pioneers were more fascinated by the superhuman inventiveness of the computer and by the inability of the reader to distinguish with certainty between machine and human products. Although no recognized masterpieces of cybernetic literature have yet been produced, it seems only a matter of time before computer poetry becomes a respected form of verse in its own right. Indeed, the possibility exists that a future Milton or Shakespeare is at this very moment studying computer science at a technical school or university.\n03:44\tNicholas Beauchesne\tThe Milton or Shakespeare of computer poetry may not have arisen yet, but one contender could be open: AI’s ChatGPT, which debuted in 2022. Other AI chatbots entered the mix soon after. Google’s Gemini, Microsoft Co-pilot, and even Adobe Photoshop have an AI-assisted editor mode. These technologies raise fundamental, ethical and existential questions about what constitutes art.\nCan a programmer or a program be a poet? They can certainly try. As ChatGPT told us in the form of haiku:\ncraft with words untold\nChatGPT offers aid\npoetry unfolds\n04:26\tChelsea Miya:\tOur first guest is Mike O’Driscoll, and he’s the Director of SpokenWeb at the University of Alberta. He’s an authority on early experiments in procedural or algorithmic poetry as he explains the “Dada” movement—and that’s “Dada” with a “d,” not a “t” as in “data”—was an anti-art movement. These early coders became infamous for their avant-garde performance pieces. The instructions were generated randomly, not with digital tech since this was before bits and bytes, but with everyday analog tools: paper, a pen, and, oddly, a hat.\n05:04\tMike O’Driscoll:\tTristan Zara, one of the leaders of the “Dadaist” Movement, would pass a hat around the room—think about a Vienna Cafe 1916—and invite audience members to put a word into the hat and then the hat would be gathered and as the words came out of the hat that would construct the poem. That’s a “procedural” poetic. That is a way of making a poem according to a particular rule-driven methodology that might or might not be modified before, during, or after, in terms of human intention and other creative roles that the human participants might play.\n05:48\tChelsea Miya:\tFast-forward to the 1960s. IBM [“International Business Machines”] had just debuted powerful new computing machines, and almost from the get-go, the company founders imagined using these machines to create art. They invited a number of artists to their laboratories, including Jackson Mac Low.\n06:08\tMike O’Driscoll:\tIn Southern California in 1969, Jackson was invited to participate alongside computer technologists in the production of some poetry, which he dubbed the “PFR-3 Poems” [PFR: Phonemic Face Realizations]. These were using film readers that could be read automatically by a computer program that would essentially take the inputs that he produced and randomize them in different ways so he could enter up to a hundred lines of text with up to 48 characters per line. The program would identify units of that text, whether words or sentences and then randomize those and produce poems by displaying on a screen every 10th line produced through that algorithmic procedure. So, that was a very early instance of Jackson Mac Low engaging computer technology to produce a poem.\n07:09\tChelsea Miya:\tAs Michael O’Driscoll explains, this was not Mac Low’s first experiment with computational art, as described by a poet who worked like a computer before computers. Mac Loew had been experimenting with rule-based language games for years.\n07:25\tMike O’Driscoll:\tJackson had already been working by hand for six years before that on what he called his “diastic writing through” method, which was essentially an algorithmic procedure that uses source texts and seed texts or index text to determine which words are pulled out of the source text and displayed on the page of the poem. That procedure depends specifically on the very exacting rule of matching letter positions in words in the seed text to letter positions in words in the source text to determine the material that becomes the poem. That’s a process that Jackson was doing by hand from 1963 and did for the next 26 years by hand. And if anyone wants to try this, I welcome them to try it. But the manic patience it takes to do this is astounding and impressive.\n08:25\tNicholas Beauchesne\tJackson Mac Low was not the only artist who experimented with algorithmic methods. He was part of an experimental art movement called “Fluxus.” Like the “Dadaists” who came before, the Fluxus of the 1960s was more interested in the process of making art than the finished piece. In fact, the art was never finished.\n08:46\tMike O’Driscoll:\tIt’s important to note that much of that performance work was done through collaborative processes that demanded or asked of the performers and the artists a certain level of attentiveness and attunement to each other in terms of what was going on in the moment. So there’s this deeply relational aspect to what’s going on there. There is also a modelling of certain kinds of social or political formations. And so what Jackson is doing there is bringing the procedural into contact with human agency and with human community.\n09:25\tNicholas Beauchesne\tOne of the best examples of Mac’s process in action is a vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin. Here’s a clip of a live performance featuring an all-star cast of readers, including Susan Musgrave, George Macbeth, Sean O’Hagan, and the unmatchable BpNichol.\n09:46\tAudio From “A Vocabulary for Sharon Belle Mattlin” By Jackson Mac Low; Performance by Susan Musgrave, George Macbeth, Sean O’Huigin, BpNichol, and Jackson Mac Low, 1974.\tShare name, nation share name, nation share name, nation share name, belly Battle, battle Bay, west Marsh, marble Linen, melon, melon, noble, bitter liberal meat bite, bite meat. Tell them tell us anymore. Tell them Stare, stare. Helen, stare. Tell stare. Stare hen. Be lamb eel. Tell, tell them. Tell them laws tell them rain eel brain reliable metal la, reliable trash, reliable trash, reliable trash, stellar trash, reliable trash, termination. See, stellar trash. She Athens, taste me, taste me.\n10:55\tChelsea Miya:\tAs our live audience can see projected above us, here is the “score” for the performance. The page, as I’ll describe it for our listeners, is a jumble of words, some written in tiny, cramped font, other larger, some angled in different directions, or flipped upside down. Each word is a variation or riff on the name of the person the poem is dedicated to: Sharon Belle Mattlin. Some configurations of letters from her name morphed into elation, emanation, mint, share, shame, and so on. The performers were free to interpret, explore, and respond to these freewheeling scores at the moment of the performance. But always within the bounds of agreed-upon rules.\n11:42\tMike O’Driscoll:\tIt’s a brilliant field of text in which what Jackson has done, is written in by hand all of the words derived from the dedicatee of the piece. The performers that can then move across that page in ways that they are inclined to do, whether they are articulating work words or singing or in the case of instrumentalists that you could hear the flute music. In that case, they are transposing the letters to particular notes that Jackson has determined for them in advance. And so, what you’re getting, in that case, is, again, quite a rule-bound production of the text and its performance. But also, that opportunity for the performers themselves to move across and through that work in ways that they intuit and that they conduct in response to their fellow performers.\n12:46\tChelsea Miya:\tAlgorithmic processes are increasingly reshaping our world. So, we asked Mike what Mac’s work can teach us about the role of human decision makers in our data-driven society.\n13:00\tMike O’Driscoll:\tJackson works deliberately at the limit between “chance” and “choice,” between “procedure” and “intention.” He does so in part to trouble that boundary, to disturb or even deconstruct the boundary between the machine and the human, between the automatic and the “age-gentle.” And he does so for very deliberate political reasons.\nIn part one, I contend that Jackson draws attention to what I’ve been calling the ideology of machine agency. That notion that machines that algorithms, that computers are somehow themselves operative, are somehow themselves “age-gentle.”\nBut this is, in many ways, a kind of illusion that the presumption of machine agency is itself ideological, is itself something about which we should beware.\n14:02\tNicholas Beauchesne\tMike O’Driscoll is editing a new collection of Jackson Mac Low’s The Complete Stein Poems, which will feature over 100 never-before-published poems. This new version by MIT Press will hit the shelves in Fall 2025\n14:17\tAudio from “Tape Mark I” by Nanni Balestrini [Voiceprint episode “Printing and Poetry in the Computer Era,” 20 May 1981]; performed by Roman Onufrijchuk.\tAeons deep in the ice. I paint all time in a whirl bang. The sludge has cracked aeons deep in the ice. I see gelled time in a whirl. The sludge has cracked all green in the leaves. I smell dark pools in the trees crash. The moon has fled all white in the buds. I flash snow peaks in the spring bang, the sun has fogged\n14:52\tChelsea Miya:\tMac Low’s computer poems continue to be performed and encoded in new ways. Next, we’ll hear from Kevin William Davis, a contemporary composer and cellist based at the University of Virginia. Davis is a big fan of Jackson Mac Low, and he was particularly captivated by his computer poems.\n15:12\tKevin Davis:\tYeah, poetry is actually a really big inspiration of mine. I mean to me, I can read orchestral scores, I can kind of like see them and imagine them in the way that one might sit with a book of poetry maybe sound some of it out, on a score on the piano, maybe you would actually read some of the poetry out loud.\n15:34\tChelsea Miya:\tDavis’ Musicology students didn’t at first share his enthusiasm for poetry and they were kind of baffled when he brought a book of poems to practise. But when they started scoring Mac Low’s computer poems, working line by line to transform the words into sounds, something clicked.\n15:51\tKevin Davis:\tAs a music teacher, I see people struggle with notation constantly. It’s a very difficult thing to turn symbols into movements, in time. And when they were doing these, this Mac Low stuff, it was effortless. That directly, I think, inspired my thinking about, “OK, what if I then turned speech back into music?” Can I get these . . . can I get these uh [laughs] percussionists to execute rhythms that are more complex than they could with actual musical notation?\n16:29\tNicholas Beauchesne\tMac Low not only adopted methods from computing, also music theory. He studied with composer John Cage and sound, as we heard, was integral to the performance of his work. The Fluxus movement itself spanned multiple countries and multiple fields of practice—not just poetry, but also sculpture, dance, and music.\nSo, when Davis and his students decided to remake Mac Low’s PFR (Permutation, Replacement, and Form) poems in a different genre, creating music from the printed words, it was a very Fluxus thing to do.\nInstead of transcribing the words into notes, they created a series of sonic doodles. The new, re-created score looks on the page like a series of loops and squiggles, each shape corresponding to lines from the poem.\n17:15\tKevin Davis:\tMy concept of this was transformation of elements of the poem into movement, which then would result in sound. And so for literally like the drums are tracing out the letters of the poem on the surface of their instruments. And so just different ways, some of them almost silly, just different ways of transforming this movement into sound in that process. Yeah, I spent a lot of time with the words like saying the words. The four poems that were in the collection that I have were each very different. They were very much like movements of a musical work.\nAre we allowed to pause for a second? I think this would be an easier discussion to have with the book, which I was like, I should have grabbed that book.\nHold on just a second. So Know it’s around here somewhere.\n18:06\tChelsea Miya:\tSo behind me are stills from the interview that I did with Kevin over Zoom. And at this point in the interview, Davis left the frame and rummaged around in the background.\n18:18\tKevin Davis:\tOh, here it is.\n18:20\tChelsea Miya:\tAnd he pulled out a copy of Jackson Mac Low’s Collected Works: Thing of Beauty (2008). The pages are scribbled with notes for his performance, just like he would do for a score. Davis’s favourite poem, the one with a lot of annotations, is “From from David.” He confesses he was more than a little nervous about performing the speaking parts. But for this particular poem, he felt it was important to read the actual text.\n18:48\tKevin Davis:\tI’m so much more comfortable playing a musical instrument than speaking. And especially speaking as performance. There are things you find in the experience of reading one of those kinds of texts over and over. It seems like in a lot of ways more about language itself more than just any kind of emotional idea he’s trying to get across. It’s a kind of anti narrative really.\nWhile like I said before, in the reading. I tried to strike a tone. The funniness is just being like kind of pummelled by this absurdity of, you know, just these different transformations of this very simple idea of like is this is David asking what happened. [laughs]\n19:26\t[Audio From From “From ‘David’” Composed By Kevin Davis From Three PFR-3 Poems By Jackson Mac Low For Percussion Quartet And Speaker, 2017; Performance By UVA Percussion Quartet.]\tWhere did David ask what happened? How did David ask? Where did David happen to have asked me? Asking what had been, happened. David asks, had anything happened when David asked who was there? When David asked, how did David ask what happened, what had been happening when David was asking what had been happening, what was happening when David was asking happened? How had David been asked what had happened? When did David ask what had happened? Whom—\n20:08\tKevin Davis:\t[Live reading from the interview] It’s from David. David asked whether anything had been happening. Whom did David ask? What happened?\nWell, it’s like I messed up a couple times. I really, when I did it, especially in the recording and performance, I had to practise some to be ready. It’s not a tongue twister exactly, but it almost gets in that territory. There’s just so much repetition, it can get a little difficult. This one more than any of them is really a lot like reading music. Even the most notated classical piece involves improvisation on the part of the performer. It may be just in small ways.\n20:44\tKevin Davis:\tAnd it made me think about that. This feels like the kind of improvising you do when you play Mozart or Bach or something. And then you kind of like put little ends of phrases that you’re you. But in the moment, if you know it well enough, you’re able to play with it. You’ll all do this end this way this time.\nAnd what I love about this one is that some of the lines have question marks and some don’t. And so you can play around with this thing that’s often unconscious that we do, where we indicate a question through raising the pitch.\n21:23\tNicholas Beauchesne\tDavis’s reading of Mac Low’s computer scores was, in part, inspired by his experiences growing up in Appalachia. One of his first experiences with the live performance of music and voice was at his Baptist Church. When he read Mac Low’s poems, he imagined the relationship between instruments and the voice, the way the spoken text echoes the sounds, as a kind of congregation.\n21:47\tKevin Davis:\tWe did these things, called responsive readings. Have you ever heard of these? So there’ll be whatever text or sometimes Bible verses, and then the pastor will talk and then the congregation, the words will be in bold and you’ll go back and forth. And there are all these hetero-phonic artifacts of like people sort of speaking together. I found them compellingly odd, and it was. It’s such a different way of interacting than singing.\nMe, as a little kid, I thought it was really interesting. Well, it’s just this sound of like 200 people’s voices of all ages kind of like having this resonance together. But like it’s all soft on the edges because of the different ways that people are speaking. And whenever they hit like a “tee” then it’s like “tuh-tuh-tuh.” Right. It’s kind of like dancing around the room, whereas the vowels will all be kind of like these kinds of flowing singing things, you know, like sounds.\n22:51\tChelsea Miya:\tDavis doesn’t just perform computer poems. He also, on occasion, helps write computer programs. Interactive sonic events, people sounding together, have always intrigued him. After reflecting on the parallel practices of church congregations and Fluxus artists, he got to thinking: could these social dynamics of sonic performance be captured and re-created computationally?\n23:20\tAudio from “Elegia” from On Remembrance, 2020; composed by Kevin William Davis using the Murmuration software in collaboration with Eli Stine.\tI worked with a friend, Eli Stein, who’s a fantastic programmer. We came up something that’s a flocking algorithm, a bird flocking algorithm. Fifty little particles of sound, and then they just kind of flock around. You just use that flocking as kind of like a starting point. An agent of kind of chaos to spread things out and then you can stop them, freeze them.\n23:56\tChelsea Miya:\tHave you ever seen flocks of starlings? They move together in this hypnotic way, dancing across the sky, almost like jellyfish or giant misshapen bubbles, stretching and contracting. That behaviour is called Murmuration. And that’s what Davis and his partner dubbed the software: The Murmurator.\nIt’s a tool for creating interactive, multi-channel sound installations. In developing the software, they experimented with increasingly elaborate speaker set-ups, bigger “flocks” so to speak: 50 speakers, then 100, in various configurations.\nOnce you execute the program and the flock takes flight, the particles of sound will move, seemingly independently. The human user, however, is working behind the scenes, “conducting” the performance as it happens by adjusting the settings and creating different flocking patterns.\n24:57\tNicholas Beauchesne\tThere are echoes of these sonic dances in the Jackson Mac Low performances we’ve been hearing. Lately, Davis has been thinking more and more about human-computer interaction and its implications for art and creativity. He’s particularly fascinated by watching computers play games.\n25:16\tKevin Davis:\tI think a lot about chess and how, you know, people were at first very disturbed that no human could beat a computer at chess anymore. But there’s been this evolution of chess playing computers, especially through machine learning, where they’re starting to come up with chess ideas that are coming from an alien planet or something. It’s not things that anybody would have thought of.\nKevin Davis: I would wind up watching these games on YouTube that were like computers playing computers. And first of all, that’s existentially weird, like watching, right? But it’s a strange alien kind of beauty that’s coming out of these games.\n[START MUSIC]\nSo what has happened is now those ideas have reintroduced all kinds of like openings that people maybe had forgotten. There are these ways that like technologies can inspire creativity and actually give people ideas solutions to artistic or creative ideas that they hadn’t considered. Maybe find a part of yourself that you were not able to access.\n26:43\tAudio From “Tape Mark I” By Nanni Balestrini [Voiceprint Episode “Printing And Poetry In The Computer Era,” 20 May 1981]; Performed By Roman Onufrijchuk.\tThe landscape of your clay mitigates me coldly by your recognizable shape. I am wronged the perspective of your frog feeds me dimly by your wet love. I am raked.\n26:59\tChelsea Miya:\tOur last guest is a choreographer and performer, Kate Sicchio, Associate Professor of Dance and Media Technology at Virginia Commonwealth University. Sicchio explores the interface between choreography and technology with wearable technology, live coding, and real-time systems (“About”). We asked her how she made the leap from dancing in her own human body to dancing virtually with technology.\n27:27\tKate Sicchio:\tWay back when I was a high schooler, I had this internship, it was the nineties of the.com boom. So, I worked at what was then a web start-up. It’s so different than what web start-ups are now. [Laughs] But basically, I had this internship where I had taught myself some HTML to make my own geo-cities page. And so they’d give me giant Photoshop files and I would code them into HTML. So that was like my after-school job. And then I also was a dancer. So I would go for my after-school job to dance class and um did a lot of ballet and modern. And then went to do a BFA (Bachelor of Fine Arts) in dance and was like, I don’t, I’m not interested in this technology thing, whatever. I’m just gonna be a dancer. And then about halfway through my undergraduate degree, I got injured and I had a bunch of knee surgeries\n28:20\tKate Sicchio:\tI still have knee problems. My knee is really swollen right now as we speak. Um but I had to take six months off from dancing. So I went to my school’s multimedia department. I was like, I know HTML. Do you have any classes I can take? And they were like, take anything. [Laughs] So I started doing actually a lot of video work at the time and then these other sorts of different interactive classes and then when I was well enough to dance, someone kind of mentioned kind of offhand to me like, oh, well, why don’t you combine the dance courses and the multimedia courses? Why don’t these two things come together? And that was my epiphany moment. Like oh yeah, these things could come together. I really started, yeah, working a lot with um in particular video projections and making them interactive in real time. From there I went to the UK to do a master’s degree in digital performance. I kind of kept going on that trajectory and now I’m still doing it like 20 years later.\n29:30\tChelsea Miya:\tCan you describe some of the collaborations that you’ve done with robots and the things that are exciting but also challenging about working with robot collaborators and duetting with them in a sense?\n29:43\tKate Sicchio:\tI work a lot with um Dr. Patrick Martin who’s now at University of Richmond, who is a roboticist. We created our first piece together, it was performed in 2022, called Amelia and the Machine.\n[Audio starts playing. From “Amelia and the Machine,” 2022; danced by Amelia Virtue; robotics by Patrick Martin, Charles Dietzel, Alicia Olivo; music by Melody Loveless and Kate Sicchio.]\nSo, that was a duet for a small manipulator robot, which is basically a Rumba with an arm. [Laughs]. And it’s not very tall, it’s under 2 ft tall. Um And then Amelia is the dancer, Amelia Virtue. So, the aim of that piece was just to like, can we do this, can we put a robot and a person on stage together and what will that mean?\nSo, we’re really interested in the idea of human-robot teams. And a big part of that for me is I want them to improvise together. How can they like inform each other’s decision-making about movement together? We actually created this machine learning algorithm where Amelia could teach the robot a new gesture on stage by manipulating its arm.\n30:48\tKate Sicchio:\tSo she literally like grabs the arm, there’s sensors on the motors that can see where she’s put it. She only has to do that three times and then it’s learned it, it stored it, it can call it back later in the performance. So that was our small moment of improv in that piece.\nBut actually to do that became its own engineering accomplishment and that actually became like a new machine learning algorithm, which we call dancing from demonstration algorithm. So, so we had this like small like discovery of this algorithm in the process of making this piece.\n31:26\tChelsea Miya:\tThe role of empathy seems to come up in your design process in terms of imagining how these robots and robot bodies would move differently and perceive the world differently and us differently.\n31:43\tKate Sicchio:\tYeah, I think that’s part of it. Well, I guess you just realize so quickly that they’re not human. [Laughs] And like it’s a thing that comes up a lot. I’m asked like, why don’t you put costumes on your robots? And I’m like, they’re not people, they shouldn’t be seen as people. Let’s not like make them cute little characters. [Laughs]\nEven like the moving of the robot arm, we call it an arm, but it’s nothing like our arm, it doesn’t have the same joints or the same movement pathways. So, even when you’re choreographing the robot arm, you’re just moving five motors. And you become very aware of that very quickly. Like, it’s not an arm.\n32:24\tNicholas Beauchesne\tKate explains that audiences connect to the robot performers in surprising ways. Often, the people who come to her shows will respond in emotional, affective ways to the machines on stage.\n32:36\tKate Sicchio:\tSo, I think because Amelia and the machine start with her physically touching the robot, it really sets up this like very intimate relationship with the robot. And she’s very careful. She’s like is very intentional, right, in teaching it the gesture. She wants to get it just right. So here’s this person touching and teaching this robot. And it does become this like, yeah, they clearly have established this relationship together, Amelia and the robot. And people have read this in all kinds of ways. So, I have a young son. So, um he was a toddler when that piece came out. So everyone was like, this is about you and your son because the robot’s the size of a toddler. And I was like, no, it’s not! But [laughs] But um, but yeah, they just saw a woman and this toddler-sized machine and this intimate thing of teaching a toddler-sized thing. So it automatically read like that to a lot of people. And then also this, um, yeah, this clear thing where they’re dancing together but not like, um, often not in unison that sets up this relationship that they’re different but working together, um, that people really read into as well, yeah.\n33:49\tChelsea Miya:\tHow does being a choreographer give you different insights into technology and code that might not occur to a traditional coder?\n33:57\tKate Sicchio:\tYeah, there are a few ways, I think. One is just expert movers. So I try to teach this to my dance students all the time. You’re an expert mover. People need you to share your insights on the body. So there’s a lot of like systems that are being made now. Even our phones, right? Like we carry around a computer on our body all the time. We have all these gestures that we do to make it work. But these aren’t necessarily being come-up with by people who are very into using their body, right? They might be computer scientists or if you’re lucky, they’re UX designer who’s interested in the body. But usually they’re a UX designer who’s more like, oh, well, if it takes more than three clicks, people get bored. [Laughs] Right? But our interfaces are becoming more and more about the body.\n34:55\tKate Sicchio:\tAnd so there’s this place where dancers’ knowledge really could feed into how we design our technologies. Also, how we understand them. So um I’m really interested in things like how gestures hold meaning or even like an emotion, right?\nSo like if I’m like doing something really heavy and sudden it’s gonna look like a punch, right? So like if I’m gonna design like a gesture on my phone that’s heavy and sudden it’s like I’m angry. That has a whole yeah, design approach to it, right? Or I love to pick on the gesture of Tinder, right?\nSo you’re constantly flicking just like light and indirect and kind of careless. When we say, oh yeah, yeah, I’m swiping. There is a carelessness to that. This isn’t how you’re gonna find a spouse [laughs]. Because you’re just throwing people away. [Laughs]\nSo, yeah, I think about dancers as being able to bring that knowledge to tech and design.\n35:56\tChelsea Miya:\tI was curious too about like, whether your work changes the way you observe and perceive like technology in the, in the world. Do you ever, like, see machines, machines or tech and be like, wow, that’s a beautiful dance?\n36:06\tKate Sicchio:\tYeah. Yeah. Actually I do all the time. [Laughs] Yeah, I’m trying to think of something I’ve seen recently where I was like, oh I love this. But yeah, I have. I see these like machine choreography everywhere.\n[Audio from crane loading at the construction site.]\nOh, I saw some really beautiful—they’re always building. Oh, I guess in every city now. But in Richmond we have a lot of building going on. So these cranes were moving, um, and sort of like shifting. They were like counterpoint cranes on the skyline. [Laughs] And I was like, oh look at that dance. [Laughs] Yeah.\n36:39\tChelsea Miya:\tThere is something hypnotic about technology and the way that it moves and this sort of kinetic aspect.\n36:46\tKate Sicchio:\tYeah. I think that’s like a draw as a choreographer for me for sure. Because you, you say robot and everyone assumes these kinds of like sudden jerky movements, but they’re so smooth and they do have dynamics and they do have potential for like moving in different ways. That’s what gets exciting as a choreographer. It’s not like just sequencing. You can make a range of dynamics and all the stuff that gets exciting as a mover. Yeah.\n37:18\tNicholas Beauchesne\tKate performs live coated dances where the code itself is projected in real time on the walls ceiling. Even the performer’s bodies. She’s sometimes seated at the side of the stage at a desk with her laptop. Yet even when she decentres herself, her embodied interactions with the computer program, her finger strikes on the keys, even sips of water she takes are a crucial extension of the dance in this nexus of performer performance and audience of process and product. We again, think of the Fluxus movement. We asked her about that movement enduring legacy today.\n37:57\tKate Sicchio:\tYeah. And I was also talking about Fluxus prompts the other day in terms of like people talking about AI prompts, like oh, for Midjourney or whatever, giving it a prompt. And I was like, is this just a new way of doing Fluxus art? Like that’s only what they did. They just wrote prompts, right? [Laugha[\nAre we all just Fluxus artists now? Yeah [Laughs].\n38:19\tNicholas Beauchesne\tWhether used for poetry, music, or dance, or any other creative medium, algorithms have such generative potential. Algorithmic art is so peculiar in that it is seemingly chaotic, random, and illogical, yet intensely rule-bound and orderly.\nWe would like to leave the last word to another computer artist, the Italian poet and programmer Nanni Balestrini. The following poem, entitled “Tape Mark I,” is a computer-generated remix of three source texts: Michihito Hachiya’s Hiroshima Diary, Paul Goldwin’s The Mystery of the Elevator, and the philosophical treatise attributed to the sage Lao Tzu’s, the Tao Te Ching (Balestrini 55). The original “experiment” was performed on an IBM 7070 computer at the Electronic Centre of the Lombard Provinces Savings Bank in Milan in October, 1961 (55). The reader is Voiceprint producer Roman Onufrijchuk, who also read the previous two interludes of computer poetry. Onufrijchuk has an admirable knack for mimicking the monotone, mechanical voice of an imagined computer author and reader.\n39:28\tAudio from “Tape Mark I” by Nanni Balestrini [Voiceprint episode “Printing and Poetry in the Computer Era,” 20 May 1981]; performed by Roman Onufrijchuk.\tWhile the multitude of things comes into being in the blinding fireball, they all returned to their roots. They expand rapidly until he moved his fingers slowly when it reached the stratosphere and lay motionless without speaking 30 times brighter than the sun endeavouring to grasp. I envisaged their return until he moved his fingers slowly in the blinding fireball, they all returned to their roots, hair between lips and 30 times brighter than the sun lay motionless. Without speaking, they expand rapidly. Endeavouring to grasp the summit.\n40:08\tSpokenWeb Theme Song\tCan you hear me?\n40:11\tMaia Harris:\tThe SpokenWeb podcast is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from and created using Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. Our producers this month are Chelsea Miya, a postdoctoral fellow at McMaster University’s Sherman Centre for Digital Scholarship, and Nicholas Beauchesne, a musician and instructor at the University of Alberta, who also engineered this episode’s audio. The score was created by Nix Nihil through remixing samples from Kevin William Davis and Voiceprint and adding synthesizers and sound effects. Additional score sampled from performances by Davis and Kate Sicchio.\nNick Beauchesne engineered this episode’s audio and the 2024 SpokenWeb symposium.\nParticipants are our live studio audience.\n41:08\tLive Audience\t[Cheers and applause]\n41:11\tMaia Harris:\tOur usual hosts are Hannah McGregor and Katherine McLeod, our supervising producer is me, Maia Harris. Our sound designer is James Healy, and our transcriptionist is Yara Ajeeb.\nTo find out more about SpokenWeb, visit spokenweb.ca. Subscribe to the SpokenWeb podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you may listen. If you love us, let us know. Rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or say hi on our social media at SpokenWeb Canada.\nStay tuned to your podcast feed later this month for Shortcuts, with the amazing Katherine McLoed, short stories about how literature sounds.\nYou were a wonderful audience.\n41:52\tLive Audience\t[Cheers and applause]"],"score":3.9476833},{"id":"9986","cataloger_name":["Gloriah,Onyango"],"partnerInstitution":["Concordia University"],"collection_source_collection":["SpokenWeb AV"],"source_collection_label":["SpokenWeb AV"],"collection_contributing_unit":["SpokenWeb"],"source_collection_uri":[""],"collection_image_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/_nuxt/img/header-img_1000.fd7675f.png"],"collection_source_collection_description":["SpokenWeb Audio Visual Collection"],"collection_source_collection_id":["ArchiveOfThePresent"],"persistent_url":["https://archiveofthepresent.spokenweb.ca/"],"item_title":["SpokenWeb Podcast ShortCuts 3.6, Listening Communities: The Introductions of Douglas Barbour, 21 March 2022, O’Driscoll"],"item_title_source":["SpokenWeb Podcast web page."],"item_title_note":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/listening-communities-the-introductions-of-douglas-barbour/"],"item_language":["English"],"item_production_context":["Podcast"],"item_series_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast"],"item_series_description":["Series of podcasts by the SpokenWeb network."],"item_subseries_title":["The SpokenWeb Podcast ShortCuts"],"item_series_wikidata_url":["https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q117038029"],"item_series_uri":["https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/spokenweb-podcast/"],"item_identifiers":["[]"],"rights":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"rights_license":["Creative Commons Attribution (BY)"],"access":["Streaming and download"],"creator_names":["Michael O’Driscoll"],"creator_names_search":["Michael O’Driscoll"],"creators":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"name\":\"Michael O’Driscoll\",\"dates\":\"\",\"notes\":\"\",\"nation\":[],\"role\":[\"Producer\"]}]"],"contributors":["[]"],"Publication_Date":[2022],"material_description":["[]"],"digital_description":["[{\"file_url\":\"https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/28a9da1f-8cca-410c-b5d7-8165a73f9394/episodes/92fcd7b7-f420-4290-92bb-dc203c24e20e/audio/a0916f80-9412-430b-86c4-bdf060a54182/default_tc.mp3\",\"file_path\":\"\",\"filename\":\"shortcuts3-6-listeningcommunities.mp3\",\"channel_field\":\"\",\"sample_rate\":\"44.1 kHz\",\"duration\":\"00:22:28\",\"precision\":\"\",\"size\":\"21,576,865 bytes\",\"bitrate\":\"\",\"encoding\":\"\",\"contents\":\"\",\"notes\":\"MP3 audio\",\"title\":\"ShortCuts3.6_ListeningCommunities\",\"credit\":\"\",\"caption\":\"\",\"content_type\":\"Sound Recording\",\"featured\":\"\",\"public_access_url\":\"https://spokenweb.ca/podcast/episodes/listening-communities-the-introductions-of-douglas-barbour/\"}]"],"Dates":["[{\"date\":\"2022-03-21\",\"type\":\"Publication Date\",\"notes\":\"\",\"source\":\"\"}]"],"Location":["[{\"url\":\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/10238561\",\"venue\":\"University of Alberta\",\"notes\":\"\",\"address\":\"11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2E5\",\"latitude\":\"53.52682\",\"longitude\":\"-113.5244937350756\"}]"],"Address":["11121 Saskatchewan Drive NW, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2E5"],"Venue":["University of Alberta"],"City":["Edmonton, Alberta"],"Note":["[]"],"Related_works":["[{\"url\":\"\",\"citation\":\"AUDIO\\n\\nAudio played in this ShortCuts is excerpted from the SpokenWeb’s audio collections held by the University of Alberta. The audio is currently being catalogued by SpokenWeb researchers. \\n\\nAudio of Douglas Barbour reading “The Gone Tune” is from the cassette tape recording of The Bards of March (15 March 1986). \\n\\nAudio of Douglas Barbour’s introductions are selected from readings recorded in 1977-1981. The poets introduced are, in order of audio appearance: Tom Wayman, Phyllis Webb, Fred Wah, Maxine Gadd, George Bowering, Roy Kiyooka, Penn Kemp, Leona Gom, John Newlove, Sheila Watson, Robert Kroetsch, and bpNichol.\\n\\nRESOURCES\\n\\nNeWest Press: IN MEMORIAM: DOUGLAS BARBOUR (1940-2021),\\nhttps://newestpress.com/news/in-memoriam-douglas-barbour-1940-2021\\n\\nDouglas Barbour (March 21, 1940 – September 25, 2021),\\nhttps://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2021/09/douglas-barbour-march-21-1940-september.html\\n\\n“\\nSounds of Trance Formation: An Interview with Penn Kemp.\\n” Produced by Nick Beauchesne & Penn Kemp for\\nThe SpokenWeb Podcast\\nand starts with a clip from the\\nTrance Form\\nreading hosted by Douglas Barbour at the University of Alberta (1977).\\n\\n\"}]"],"_version_":1853670549812674560,"timestamp":"2026-01-07T14:59:54.290Z","contents":["Our guest-producer this month, Michael O’Driscoll, invites us to listen to the introductions of the late Douglas Barbour\n(March 21, 1940 – Sept 25, 2021)\nfrom readings held at the University of Alberta. What are we listening to when we hear introductory remarks from past readings spliced together? By asking us to listen to remember, this episode remembers Barbour in his element —in sonic performance — and what we hear in the selected recordings is a combination both of poetic sound and sounds of deep care as he welcomes each writer to the microphone. \n\n00:09\tShortCuts Theme Music\t[Piano Overlaid with Distorted Beat]\n \n\n00:09\tHannah McGregor:\tWelcome to SpokenWeb ShortCuts. Each month on alternate fortnights (that’s every second week following the monthly SpokenWeb Podcast episode) you can join me, Hannah McGregor and our minisode host and curator, Katherine McLeod for SpokenWeb’s ShortCuts mini-series. We’ll share with you specially curated audio clips from deep in the SpokenWeb archives to ask: what does it mean to cut and splice digitally? What kinds of new stories and audio criticism can be produced through these short archival clips? ShortCuts is an extension of the ShortCuts blog posts on Spoken Web blog, so if you love what you hear be sure to head over to spokenweb.ca for more. If you’re a researcher with the Spoken Web Project, think about joining Katherine on shortcuts to discuss an archival clip that has impacted your work. Especially if you’re a student who has been digitizing and cataloging recordings, and there’s a sound that stands out to you after all those hours of listening, let Katherine know! Pitch Katherine, your audio by emailing SpokenWebPodcast@gmail.com. Now here is Katherine McLeod with SpokenWeb ShortCuts, mini-stories about how literature sounds. [SpokenWeb Podcast Theme Music: Instrumental Overlapped with Feminine Voice]\n \n\n01:28\tKatherine McLeod:\tWelcome back to ShortCuts where we take a deep dive into the archives through a short ‘cut’ [Sound Effect: Scissor Clip] or ‘cuts’ [Sound Effect: Scissor Clip x2] from the sounds of the SpokenWeb audio collections. This month, we have a guest producer, Michael O’Driscoll. He’ll be taking us on a sonic journey into recordings that are part of SpokenWeb’s collections held by the University of Alberta. So I’ll keep my own introduction brief here, but I do want to share the story of how this episode came about because it really does shape what you will hear. Throughout this third season of ShortCuts, I’ve been asking: How does the archive remember? Back in the November episode (and do listen back to it afterwards as it really is a place where many of the questions asked in this episode began) I had just finished making that episode and I was so heartbroken as many of us were to hear the news that writers Phyllis Webb and Lee Maracle had passed away. I happened to be in a SpokenWeb meeting with Michael O’Driscoll the following week and we started talking about what it means to listen to archives as a kind of communal remembrance — for Michael, the writer on his mind was the late Douglas Barbour. And after that meeting, we decided to talk more about ShortCuts as one of many places to explore a kind of listening as remembrance. By the time this episode was made we started to call this “listening to remember.” So here we are now in March 2022 and Michael has created an episode which is both a celebration of the multi-faceted sounds of Barbour’s poetry, and a reflection upon what community and care can sound like in the archives. Let’s listen together to “Listening Communities: The Introductions of Douglas Barbour”.\n \n\n03:33\tMichael O’Driscoll:\t[Start Music: ShortCuts Theme Music] Hello, I’m Michael O’Driscoll, and in this ShortCuts episode we’re going to explore a most under-rated audio-textual genre: the introduction to a literary reading. And to do that we’re going to jump into the University of Alberta’s SpokenWeb collection, and listen in on a master of the genre: poet, professor, critic, and publisher Douglas Barbour. [End Music” ShortCuts Theme Music] If you’re familiar with Doug’s creative work, then you probably know him as one of Canada’s great sound poets…\n \n\n04:08\tArchival Recording, Douglas Barbour, The Bards of March, 1986:\tThis is called “That Gone Tune” and it began when I was at the well known and noted Yardbird suite listening to the Dave Holland Quintet. “That Gone Tune”. [Opening clip of Barbour performing the sound poem “That Gone Tune,” starting with nonlinguistic vocalizations ranging in loudness and then settling into utterances that are mostly vowel-sounds.]\n \n\n05:28\tMichael O’Driscoll:\tThat’s Doug performing in 1986 at Edmonton’s Jubilee Auditorium at The Bards of March event, a celebration of NeWest Press. I first heard Doug’s sound poetry one year earlier at the Bookshop Café in Guelph, Ontario. It was, without exaggeration, life changing—as a young undergraduate student, I’d never witnessed anything like it. Over ten minutes time, in exacting, breathtaking, and sometimes humorous detail, Doug performed the words “full” and “moon” by carefully articulating, extending, and distorting the consonants and vowels of each word—teasing out and making so strange a motif that otherwise, so often, has been the subject of much more conventional lyric poetry. Sadly, we don’t have a copy of Doug performing “Full Moon,” but what we do have in the University of Alberta’s SpokenWeb collection are many, many instances of Doug introducing his visiting guests to a local audience. And that’s where I’d like us to pause briefly today.\n \n\n06:42\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Tom Wayman at the University of Alberta, approximately 1978:\tIndeed, a pleasure to introduce Tom Wayman to you today. He is our writer in residence this year and a great fellow to have around. I can tell you, I’ve been enjoying talking to him and listening to him for the past few months and look forward to that in the future. Today, I’m afraid he’s gonna hack and cough his way through a fairly short reading since he’s come down with a very bad cold in the last couple weeks. But, as various of his titles indicate he is the person who likes to communicate to live audiences, Money and Rain, a title I love, Tom Wayman Live is one of his books and always enjoyed him when I listen to him. I hope you will too today, Tom Wayman. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n07:25\tMichael O’Driscoll:\tI eventually came to know Doug when I joined him as a faculty member at the University of Alberta in 1997. Doug, who quickly became a friend, was passionate about many things: he was an inveterate jazz enthusiast, and he was an avid reader and critic of science fiction and fantasy in addition to being astonishingly expert on all things poetic. He was a founding member and President of NeWest Press; he was, along with Stephen Scobie, half of the Re: Sounding performance duo that performed around the world, and he was, at heart, a generous teacher and mentor. I can’t possibly capture his dynamic character in the space of this short account, so I want to focus on one thing: Doug’s cultivation of community. When Doug passed away last September at the age of 81, his life partner Sharon Barbour heard an outpouring of grief and support and memory from hundreds of friends, writers, artists, collaborators, and students from quite literally around the world. So many of us were compelled to express our deep admiration and gratitude for this man with whom we each felt connected. This was, in part, because Doug worked relentlessly to gather together a community of listeners—through collaborative writing and creation—such as the “Continuations” series he wrote with poet Sheila Murphy—by generously sharing and circulating the work of others, in his passionate commitment to teaching and learning, in supporting and nurturing artists near and far, and by opening up their home to visiting writers here in Edmonton. If you search “Barbour” in the University of Alberta’s SpokenWeb collection of literary sound recordings, Doug’s name comes up a couple of dozen times. That’s because year in and year out, there was Doug, pushing the “record” button on a reel to reel or cassette tape recorder, and introducing the authors under his care. Many of my other colleagues shared in the organizing and hospitality that went into building not only UAlberta’s annual reading series, but also what is now the oldest, continuous Writer in Residence program in the country. But as custodians of literary audio, the SpokenWeb collective owes Doug a particular debt of gratitude for helping to capture so many of these moments in creative time. And perhaps nothing better represents Doug’s spirit of hospitality and community building than his introductions to those guests. And that provides us with a unique opportunity to listen to community in the making. Here’s what that sounded like, for Doug.\n \n\n10:22\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Phyllis Webb at the University of Alberta, January 29, 1981:\t[Collage of intros and background audio, sometimes inaudible and ranging in sound quality.] Well, it’s my pleasure to welcome you to the first of what I hope will be five readings this term. We haven’t heard from everybody yet, but the next there’ll be two in February and two in March. I have had the pleasure of introducing Phyllis Webb to audiences at U of A before, but my pleasure is really great this time, since she is also our writer in residence this year, something of which I’m very proud. Also for the first time at least here, she’ll be reading, not only from the manuscript for her new book, but from the new book itself, Wilson’s Bowl, which has just been published by Coach House. Alas quick boning around the book store has revealed that it had not yet come in, but it will soon be available in stores in Edmonton. And it’s an incredibly good book indeed. Already available in a very fine book is her selected poems, which is in the bookstore, hither and yawn. Anybody who’s read the journal recently will know I think very highly of Phyllis Webb so I’ll say nothing more than: Phyllis Webb. [Audience Applause].\n \n\n11:26\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Fred Wah at the University of Alberta, March 8, 1979:\t[Tape Click] I’s a real pleasure for me to introduce Fred Wah today, he’s a poet I’ve been reading for a number of years. I actually did read his first work in New Wave Canada in 1966 and although I never did find a copy of lardo or a mountain, which were his first books and are probably very rare by now, I have managed to get hold of his later books published in Canada, Trees, among which is a kind of selected poems from 60s and an amazingly beautiful book from Town Books, pictograms from the interior of BC, which is both very fine poems and a beautiful example of book making, I think. Fred is now working on a book which bpNichol said is easy enough for him to say, but very difficult for people like me and you Doug, because it’s very hard to breathe Nichol or Barbara out that easily, but breathing my name with a sigh is very easy when your name is Fred WAH! So, I look forward to hearing from that book as well as some of his other work today and with no further ado I’ll let Fred Wah read. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n12:39\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Maxine Gadd at the University of Alberta, February 16, 1979:\t[Inaudible Sounds] There’s somebody from Vancouver, but Maxine has been putting up very well with frozen cars and everything this morning. She’s published only three books, but she’s been writing for a long time. And as you can see here written a great deal. She doesn’t like to be published. And it seems from what she said to me this morning that the reason two of those books were published… [Recording Drops Out] … grabs some manuscript and ran with it as fast as he could to his blewointment press, uh, those books. However, are guns of the west, the book of Practical Knowledge and how do you pronounce it? Hochelaga?\n \n\n13:07\tArchival Recording Maxine Gadd at the University of Alberta, February 16, 1979:\tHochelaga. Yeah, I published Practical Knowledge myself.\n \n\n13:09\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Maxine Gadd at the University of Alberta, February 16, 1979:\tAnd, Westerns was published in 1975, a collection of those three books. I’m looking really forward to this reading and I hope you are too, Maxine Gadd.\n \n\n13:18\tArchival Recording Maxine Gadd at the University of Alberta, February 16, 1979:\tThanks.\n \n\n13:18\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing George Bowering at the University of Alberta, February 12, 1980:\tI have George Bowering here today to read to us. He is recently published another [inaudible] but I tend to think of him as the author of A Short Sad Book, Allophanes, and casting backwards a long distance, Touch, and many other works. George was once poet, but now he says he calls himself simply a writer. And he’s a very good writer. I’m glad to have him here. [Audience Applause].\n \n\n13:43\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Roy Kiyooka at the University of Alberta, February 11, 1977:\t…Stood among what I thought were the extraordinarily evocative photographs of his stone gloves and gave a reading at the University of Alberta. He hasn’t been back since, since that time, the book Stone Gloves has been published and last year Talon Books brought out a huge monumental transcanada letters, a book, which is delightful, engaging, and all the things that Roy Kiyooka is, which means multiplex and full of many, many wonders. It is my pleasure to introduce Roy Kiyooka to you today. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n14:15\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour, from Penny Chalmers (Penn Kemp) at the University of Alberta, February 18, 1977:\tThey’ll be right up to your feet but that won’t be too bad.\n \n\n14:18\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Penny Chalmers (Penn Kemp) at the University of Alberta, February 18, 1977:\t…Penny is the author of Most Recently Transformed, which is a marvelous looking book, as well as a very, very fine book…\n \n\n14:27\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Leona Gom at the University of Alberta, February 21, 1980:\t[Audience Chatter] …still a bit of… Not much [Audience Laughter]. We’re happy to welcome Leona Gom. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n14:36\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour, from John Newlove at the University of Alberta, March 19, 1981:\t[Audience Chatter] …there’s your friend. There’s a little bit of room if you wanna sit on the floor here!\n \n\n14:40\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing John Newlove at the University of Alberta, March 19, 1981:\t….Just published a body of poetry, which has been seen to be very, very important to Canadian writing: John Newlove. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n14:50\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Sheila Watson at the University of Alberta, January 28, 1977:\t… I don’t think I have to tell you the pleasure I have in introducing Sheila Watson into this series of readings, so I would just present her with the greatest pleasure I can to you today: Sheila Watson. [Audience Applause]\n \n\n15:03\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing Robert Kroetsch at the University of Alberta, November 23, 1978:\t…approach but I feel that the need for an introduction is less than apparent in an audience like this, but it’s nice to have him back again, alumni of this university and one of the best writers, I think, in Canada today. Robert Kroetsch has written numerous novels, The Words of my Roaring, The Stud Horseman, Going Indian, and his most recent one available right now in your bookstore, What the Crow Said, and many books of poetry, including Seed Catalogue and the Stone Hammer Poems. And I don’t think I need to say anything more except welcome Robert Kroetsch. [Applause]\n \n\n15:40\tArchival Audio, Douglas Barbour introducing bpNichol at the University of Alberta, March 22, 1979:\t[Inaudible] I think I – [Laughs] yeah, those of you who aren’t quite as close to as I am. I wanna say that it’s a great pleasure to have him back at the University of Alberta for a reading today. He won the Governor General’s Award in 1971 for as both an editor, a prose writer, and a poet. And since that time, as well as before, he’s been carrying on in all those areas. He’s a member of the editorial board of Coach House Press, one of the leading little presses in the country. As a prose writer in the past year has seen the publication of Craft Dinner, A Bunch of Proses from 1966 to 1976 collection of his shorter works, including one of the works that helped him win that Governor General’s Award, The True Eventual Story of Billy the Kid. He – as a prose writer he also published this year journal, a long work of great complexity and emotional, hard hitting-ness I suppose I can say. And as a poet, of course, he is known as both a sound poet and a concrete poet – as a sound poet, a concrete poet, and as he likes to put a trad poet. In sound poetry in the past year, I have seen him perform solo in Glasgow and with The Four Horseman at the 11th International Poetry Sound Festival – sound poetry in Toronto. And as a concrete poet he is also known internationally for his work in that field. And as a trad poet so to speak, The Ongoing Martyrology amongst as many other work stands as testament to the incredible amount of work and the value of it, I think to us all. So with that, bpNichol.\n \n\n17:28\tMichael O’Driscoll:\tThose samples come from the years 1977 to 1981. Doug’s style—as always—is exemplary: warm, exuberant, welcoming; but, also, each time he affirms at least three important things: the relationships that bind a network of poets and writers cross Canada; his careful attention to the work of others; and the joy of celebrating a shared community of practice. Little did I know that evening in Guelph, as my friends and I sat and listened, jaws agape, to Doug’s 1985 performance of “Full Moon,” that we were being invited into something very, very special that was already in the making: a community of listeners, and a mode of listening, to each other, to ourselves, and to the world around us\n \n\n18:29\tArchival Recording, Douglas Barbour, The Bards of March, 1986:\t[End of the recording played earlier of Barbour performing “That Gone Tune.” Nonlinguistic and songlike utterances compose most of the poem but these words are heard clearly at the end: “Go with it, go with it! If you’re lucky then you’re sounding, and you’re gone,” with a stretching of the word “gone”.] [Audience Applause] Thank you.\n \n\n22:05\tKatherine McLeod:\t[Start Music: ShortCuts Theme Music] You’ve been listening to ShortCuts. Our guest this month was Michael O’Driscoll. ShortCuts is mixed and mastered by Judith Burr, hosted by Hannah McGregor, transcribed by Kelly Cubbon, and hosted by me, Katherine McLeod. Thanks for listening. [End Music: ShortCuts Theme Music]\n \n\n\n"],"score":3.9476833}]